The 'hunt' order

[Scipio]

I wonder why the hunt command terminates all further movement orders. If this would not be the case, it could add a wide range of tactics.

Hunt followed by reverse -> retreat on contact

or similiar

Hunt followed by any other movement order -> on contact move to...

Hunt followed by hunt -> similiar to the classic CMx1 hunt command

Now let's combine this with pauses at the waypoints...

Speaking as always as a non-programer, I wonder if it is difficult to remove the 'termination-switch' from the hunt command...

[hcrof]

That does sound sensible. You could mash out some pretty complex contact drills with that system. I like it!

[zwobot]

Good idea. I want to have it too.

[-Pv-]

I can think of situdations where a pre-programmed response to contact might over-ride self preservation and cause a loss. Not that I don't like the idea.

-Pv-

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Not a very good system IMHO. If I want to move a stretch in Hunt and then want to move onward in another movement mode then this system would interfere with that.

If I want to Hunt to loc A and then Loc B, the game would think I'd want to proceed in Ye Olde Hunt, whereas really I wanted Hunt.

Though as always I would very much want to see a return of the old Hunt and Move to Contact.

[hcrof]

If you added a very short move order (1 square) in between lots of short hunt orders I think you would get the effect you are looking for. Time consuming but how often do you do long hunt orders?

[Sgt Joch]

I am also not a big fan of the CMSF "Hunt" order since AFVs will stop dead as soon as they spot something. Of course, the old CMx1 "Hunt" order was not perfect either since your AFV could get itself into even more trouble by continuing to move forward.

Lately, I have been eschewing the "Hunt" order altogether, experimenting instead with an ersatz "Shoot & Scoot" order: "Quick" to an overwatch position, followed by "Pause" for 20-30 seconds (long enough to spot&engage 1-2 enemy targets/short enough to minimize the risk of loss to enemy ATGMs), finishing off with "Reverse" out of LOS.

[Lethaface]

Although a command like somthing Scipio suggested would be welcomed by me, I also have good use for the current hunt command. Sometime you just want forces to advance until contact and then stay there and shoot the **** out of anything that moves. Especially in groups of units it is a (perhaps gamey) command to make a larger assault executed more realistic. I sometimes order large units a quick command near to the frontlines following a deep hunt command to be sure they will engage asap.

[hcrof]

Hunt is useful when approaching hull down positions, just in case of any surprises!

[Wengart]

Supposing we got the old move to contact order back. It could then be used as Scipio suggested. Additionally, as a command, it seems better suited to act as a player made contact drill than hunt.

[Lethaface]

but how would you then order your men to behave like the current hunt command? I mean plot a number of hunt commands and you'll understand what I mean. I like the idea but i still need my nowadays hunt

[Scipio]

Although a command like somthing Scipio suggested would be welcomed by me, I also have good use for the current hunt command. Sometime you just want forces to advance until contact and then stay there and shoot the **** out of anything that moves. Especially in groups of units it is a (perhaps gamey) command to make a larger assault executed more realistic. I sometimes order large units a quick command near to the frontlines following a deep hunt command to be sure they will engage asap.

Hunt is useful when approaching hull down positions, just in case of any surprises!

Both is still possible even if the hunt command is changed in the way I suggested. I mean, a hunt order don't must be followed by another move order, right!?

Not a very good system IMHO. If I want to move a stretch in Hunt and then want to move onward in another movement mode then this system would interfere with that.

If I want to Hunt to loc A and then Loc B, the game would think I'd want to proceed in Ye Olde Hunt, whereas really I wanted Hunt.

Though as always I would very much want to see a return of the old Hunt and Move to Contact.

I see what you mean, but isn't it simply a question of placing waypoints?

[Lethaface]

Ah!, as I understood it you meant that troops were supposed to carry on hunting after contact?

Currently I can plot X waypoints and my troops will stop hunting after the first contact was made.

[Lethaface]

Actually, what I was hoping for is a INFILTRATE like command. Like a hunt command combined with HIDE but then without the actual hiding (lying down) aspect. In HIDE troops only fire back when they are fired upon IIRC. Something similar can be done when using a firing arc, but it isn't always optimal behaviour. For example the airfield recon mission in the UK campaign needs a new command in this fashion. The current possibilities seem a bit cumbersome to get the troops to behave like you want.

"Keep on the lookout but hold your fire gents!"

The only problem, there is no more space in the Movement tab

Now if we could somehow dress it up as a target like command, we could get it through since it should only be combining current code behind a new button in a place where there is space for said button

[Vinnart]

I agree. Currently Hunt basicly works like Move to Contact did in Cmx1. I would prefer having the two distinct orders as it was. This is pretty much how CMAK manual explains it. In CMx1 Hunt was only for vehicles and not an infantry command.

MOVE TO CONTACT - orders the unit to advance cautiously and keep eyes open for enemy contacts. Will STOP as soon as enemy comes into LOS or unit is fired upon. Units ordered to Move to Contact AND Hide will hide

at the end of their movement, even if the movement stops prematurely due to enemy contact.

HUNT- Tells the unit to advance at medium speed and look for enemy targets. When enemy targets come into line of sight, the unit will STOP and ENGAGE IF it has a decent chance of causing damage to them, RESUMING on its movement path after all valid targets have been killed or moved out of sight.

Of course the AI is expected to make intelligent altering to the movement plan on its own as situtaions dictate. Fighting when it is has a chance, and retreating or hiding when it doesn't.

[birdstrike]

I wonder why the hunt command terminates all further movement orders. If this would not be the case, it could add a wide range of tactics.

Hunt followed by reverse -> retreat on contact

or similiar

Hunt followed by any other movement order -> on contact move to...

Hunt followed by hunt -> similiar to the classic CMx1 hunt command

Now let's combine this with pauses at the waypoints...

Speaking as always as a non-programer, I wonder if it is difficult to remove the 'termination-switch' from the hunt command...

I like the idea. That's something I would have liked to have back in the old CMx1 days, too.

[c3k]

My suggestion (since I, too, think HUNT could be better).

HUNT right now is a style of movement. Supposedly it increases situational awareness and maximizes the use of cover and concealment, all at a cost in speed.

The problem occurs when a unit using HUNT actually spots an enemy. It's the unit's REACTION to the enemy, not its movement technique that should be adjusted.

If we leave HUNT without a modifier, the unit will perform a CMx1 style "move to contact". That's fine in certain situations.

I do think simple ACTIONS should be linked to HUNT. I foresee 5 types of action after enemy contact; freeze, engage, retreat, advance, continue hunt.

FREEZE; the current HUNT action. When an enemy is spotted, the unit stops. It may engage if it "feels" threatened, otherwise it maintains its position. (Move to contact then stop.)

ENGAGE; stay put and fire on the enemy as if you hadn't been moving. This would be a MUCH more aggressive reaction than the current reaction. (Move to contact and TARGET.)

RETREAT; basically let the TacAI have the men run away to some nearby cover. (Move to contact and find cover in a direction AWAY from the enemy. Do NOT maintain LOS to enemy; specifically, find a location out of LOS.) (I airily wave my hand about and expect BF.C to make this happen in a good manner.) (A possible action would be REVERSE for vehicles, or QUICK for infantry, for a specified distance - say 40 meters - in the opposite direction from which it was moving. Not the best, perhaps, but simpler than trying to determine cover or break LOS.)

ADVANCE; drop the HUNT order and transition to a movement order to get to the next WAYPOINT. (QUICK, ASSAULT, MOVE, SLOW takes over for the rest of that movement path segment.) (TacAI issue of which type of order would be best in the circumstance.)

CONTINUE HUNT; don't freeze! Keep moving, using cover and concealment. Engage the enemy lightly if needed. (This is very much in the spirit of the old HUNT command.)

For all of these, COVERED ARC would be possible. HUNT would continue as the movement order if an enemy OUTSIDE the covered arc is spotted. I.e., enemy outside the arc would be ignored for the purposes of changing HUNT to one of the ACTIONS. If an enemy is spotted inside the arc, then the conditional action would trigger normally. (No covered arc means ANY spotted enemy triggers the action behavior.)

Placing a conditional GO TO waypoint does not seem like it's a good idea to me. You'd have to link many conditional waypoints to each movement segment with a HUNT order. GO BACK means move (QUICK?) to the previous waypoint. (That would entail programming a "memory" of where the unit came from.)

My preference, stated above, would not need any additional waypoint plotting or any waypoint memory by the TacAI or the player.

A quick UI suggestion would be to have the HUNT button, when clicked, open up the conditional ACTIONs next to it so the player could scroll his mouse pointer directly onto the ACTION desired. One click, done. Otherwise, the conditional ACTIONs would remain unseen. If the current HUNT is desired, you just don't scroll the mouse.

Thanks,

Ken

[-Pv-]

C3K suggestion above seems reasonable at first glance. The spirit of these suggestions appears to try and reduce the baby sitting required of first contact, especially since many units near the front are likely to gain contact within a small interval of time.

-Pv-

[c3k]

Bumpitized.

[jenrick]

Posted this a while back:

I'd simply split movement into a speed and a tactics options. You'd have sprint, double time, normal, and crawl. The faster they are the less attentive they are, there's no way to really hunt for a target and sprint that's as effective as moving at a normal pace and looking. Additionally they have a much more obvious profile, aren't as stealthy etc. Sprint is obvious hair on fire running (the good old fashioned 3 second rush), double time is a fast movement when not under effective fire or just needing to get there in a hurry, normal is a walking pace when you're paroling looking for trouble or administrative moving, crawl is kinda self explanatory.

Then have a tactics choice assault, move to contact, scout, sneak. Assault is move to the location designated through enemy fire if neccesary, do not stop unless the unit breaks or pins. Move to contact is move forward, but if you make contact with the enemy stop and engage (the hunt command currently in use). Scout is move till you make spot an enemy, then go to ground and wait for orders do not engage initially. Sneak is move until you spot and enemy then back up till you can no longer see them, do not engage.

Having these options be mixed and match creates some great options for movement. Crawl/assault under heavy fire in thick brush, great way to close. Sprint and sneak, trying to move a missile team to flank as an ambush. No point in getting them on the flank if the enemy knows they're there.

Shoot you could set generic formation tactics so that all units are going to normally move in movement to contact or sneak as you want them too. Set your dismounted scout squads to Normal/Scout and have them work forward and then stop and hide when the find the enemy, no need to set the tatics on each move command.

missinginreality: just saw your post. I agree if the animation protrayed a unit under "move" orders as being on patrol it would make sense. Also the description of the movement states in the manual make move sound less then useful. Right now "move" just looks like they're getting ready to load in the 5 ton to head out for their FTX, rather then in a combat zone.

-Jenrick

[eniced73]

This is related to this post somewhat. If I have 3 or 4 AT teams (Syrian) moving up a hill / bank with enemy armor on the side that I want to ambush what is the best way to do this? Do I quick move up to the berm of the hill (out of site of the armor) and then use the 'SNEAK' or do I use the 'HUNT' command to approach the armor and get off a shot before they blast me? Any info is appreciated.

[Clavicula_Nox]

Does Hunt increase the moving unit's awareness and ability to spot? I have become afraid to use Hunt with infantry because, upon any kind of contact whatsoever, they immediately drop to the ground, start crawling in circles, smoke cigarettes, brew coffee, read a magazine, and then start looking for targets to engage.

I would prefer a Hunt that doesn't bring the entire movement to a dead halt.

[hcrof]

The problem with infantry hunt is that when they hit the deck they lose sight of what they dropped for. This makes the whole command pretty pointless unless you are in a very flat map.

Trying to hunt over a ridge doesn't work for that exact reason so I would use the quick/slow option.

[Sergei]

I have become afraid to use Hunt with infantry because, upon any kind of contact whatsoever, they immediately drop to the ground, start crawling in circles, smoke cigarettes, brew coffee, read a magazine, and then start looking for targets to engage.

To be honest, that's pretty much the whole point in hunting. That and running away from the wifefolk.