What is wrong with the snipers?

[flamingknives]

The things that snipers have above and beyond the average squaddie are, AIUI:

Focus. Snipers are chosen for their ability to concentrate and remain still, while less disciplined troops would fidget and give away their position after extended periods

Personal Cam. Even if not explicitly modelled, all soldiers will have a certain amount of personal cam and snipers are trained at using it better than the average, be it on the move or stationary.

Granted much of the bonus for concealed movement is down to use of ground which is down to the player.

[dan/california]

Scenario designers need to make sniper teams crack/elite for people to get the results they seem to expect. The guys in the first couple of scenarios in the marines module are killing machines.

[AlExal]

Hey, hey, hey. That's not the way I wanted it to be.

I'm not interested in situations when sniper vs sniper.

I gave you as an example 2 situations.

1) sniper(veteran) made lots of shots to shoot a team of the recoilless. He almost run out of ammo. That team was 200meters away on plain ground. It was alreay about half an hour since the start of the mission. I'm sure that these wasn't just bad luck.

2) sniper observed town for about an hour. Somehow he noticed an rpg team and a mgteam, behind some kind of a kerb 400m away. Not a single hit. I'm not sure that it was a bad luck also.

3) sniper hadn't spotted not a single opforse soldier inside the building after an hour of observation. Even when they started shooting, he didn't. (forward observer spotted some of them, so why not to increase spotting ability of the sniper team to this level?)

Again, I'm not trying to discuss sniper vs sniper situation (perhaps there was a sniper in one of those opforce fireteams, I just don't know, but judging of the intense of fire, the whole team was shootin, not only 1 sniper)

In my humble opinion, ideal varient is the following: sniper gets into position, observes the territory (targeting arc command?), sniper spots the target, 3-5 rounds depending on the distance and other condition, sniper changes position. Am I right? But it is impossible to realise with current sniper's accuracy and spotting abilities. As a result sniperteam unit is one of the most useless in the game. And I think game looses a lot because of that.

[pad152]

I really disagree with the notion that snipers should receive a blanket stealth bonus (except for sound contacts which as yet do not exist). The responsibility lies with the player to select a covered and concealed route and use the appropriate movement orders, such as Crawl when cover is low. If the snipers in this game were equipped with ghillie suits, I'd be singing a different tune; but they aren't.

What I could see sniper specialists having:

- Reduced sound contact (if not firing, and whenever this happens to enter the game again).

- After a short time being stationary, a concealment bonus in such terrain as buildings and wooded areas.

A sniper can't do their job if the enemy can see him coming and going, stealth is a huge part of the job. The Army/Marines/etc. are full of good shooters, that doesn't make them snipers, it's the ability to slink in, not being noticed, take the shot, and slink out again! That's why there is specialized training for snipers.

[hcrof]

Whenever I have used snipers I have had great success with them. Not only are they pretty accurate even against moving targets, they will also prioritise high value targets like NCO's and MG guys. Sharpshooters are a different proposition though. Maybe you where just unlucky?

Edit - It is your job to make sure your sniper gets in and out unnoticed. Snipers don't walk around invisible in the real world, they take position at night or before the enemy has arrived to avoid detection. You can do this by crawling through woods or moving through buildings. You can't just expect them to be 'stealthy' by virtue of them being snipers.

[ChrisND]

A sniper can't do their job if the enemy can see him coming and going, stealth is a huge part of the job. The Army/Marines/etc. are full of good shooters, that doesn't make them snipers, it's the ability to slink in, not being noticed, take the shot, and slink out again! That's why there is specialized training for snipers.

I think we are having a disconnect here. A sniper gets from Point A to Point B by choosing an appropriate route. A route that is covered and concealed from enemy observation (or as much as permitted). He then moves through that terrain appropriately (for example, low crawling if enemy observation covers the area). This requires judgment derived from their training, and that judgment is all in the hands of the player, since the AI obviously isn't up to that task. He doesn't turn on his "They can't see me because I'm a sniper" invisibility cloak and go cavorting around in clear view. We may as well ask the AI tanks to plan their movement orders in a tactically sound manner without our input. I could, possibly, see a small bonus in certain cases, like being prone in concealed terrain.

[JonS]

First sniper shot should have a high probability of hitting but regardless of actually hitting or not it should suppress the target. If a sniper was firing at me, I'd ...

If a sniper was firing at you, how would you know?

[pad152]

If a sniper was firing at you, how would you know?

The head explodes on the guy next to you.

[flamingknives]

Actually, I'd expect to see a bonus in any terrain, as the best position for snipers tends to be almost in the open, as there is nothing to attract attention to that point.

[Cpl Steiner]

If a sniper was firing at you, how would you know?

Do you mean, how would I know I was getting shot at, or how would I know it was a sniper doing the shooting?

I will take a guess you mean the latter, as it's patently obvious to even a layman that bullets wizzing passed your head or kicking up dirt don't go unnoticed.

Well, from accounts of soldiers I've read from WWII onwards, they DO often know it's a sniper doing the shooting rather than some other enemy. I guess this could just be situational awareness. A single crack that drops a man near you rather than dozens of rounds hitting your genenal area but not hitting anyone.

I am actually a bit confused by your question as it sounds like you are having a joke or something. Maybe you meant I'd be dead with the first shot?

[ChrisND]

Just ran quick firing range test with regular and crack British snipers. They had about 50% accuracy on targets 300m in trenches.

[pad152]

I think we are having a disconnect here. A sniper gets from Point A to Point B by choosing an appropriate route. A route that is covered and concealed from enemy observation (or as much as permitted). He then moves through that terrain appropriately (for example, low crawling if enemy observation covers the area). This requires judgment derived from their training, and that judgment is all in the hands of the player, since the AI obviously isn't up to that task. He doesn't turn on his "They can't see me because I'm a sniper" invisibility cloak and go cavorting around in clear view. We may as well ask the AI tanks to plan their movement orders in a tactically sound manner without our input. I could, possibly, see a small bonus in certain cases, like being prone in concealed terrain.

These are the disconnects!

1. The Syrian sniper should be not spotted by a British tanks!

2. The British sniper can't even crawl without being spotting, more times than not the British snipers are spotted and start take fire before they even shoot.

3. Once the British sniper shoots at a target they start taking fire and then lose the shoot out.

If real snipers performed like this, there wouldn't be any!

[theFightingSeabee]

OK, sure you can't just rush snipers around and expect them to be invisible. But since they do get extra (and in many cases the best) training in concealment, they would be able to utilize concealment much more effectively. They know how to use shadows, foliage, terrain, rubble, buildings, etc. So YES, I do expect them to be 'stealthy' by virtue of them being snipers.

Two infantry guys and a sniper/spotter team will act much differently when moving or hiding.

[flamingknives]

1 - Eh? Tanks these days have excellent electro-optic suites. I would have thought them more likely to spot a sniper than almost any other unit.

2 - How far out and with what sort of concealment?

3 - How far out?

[ChrisND]

These are the disconnects!

1. The Syrian sniper should be not spotted by a British tanks!

... what are you talking about?

2. The British sniper can't even crawl without being spotting, more times than not the British snipers are spotted and start take fire before they even shoot.

Given the proper terrain, I can move troops pretty close (within a couple hundred meters) in the prone before they get spotted and receive fire. So my experience differs to yours. Maybe it is your expectations and/or tactics that are at fault here instead of the game. Besides, without a save file demonstrating this, it doesn't tell anyone anything except for your subjective opinion.

3. Once the British sniper shoots at a target they start taking fire and then lose the shoot out.

Don't put them in situations where they can be overwhelmed then. If you stick them in a high building that everyone can see... then expect them to get clobbered when they start a fire fight. If you stick them in the open and within effective small arms range, expect them to not like it when a Syrian squad opens up on them.

I remember a scenario in the Brit campaign where I had a lone British sniper team in a building hold off an entire Syrian dismount platoon. Anyone that moved, died or became suppressed. Sure the snipers took some fire, but they were a high experience level and mostly shrugged it off. It took Syrian armor within fifty meters to finally remove the sniper team. I now have an anecdote to counter yours. Neither is better than the other or matters much for objectively determining whether snipers are behaving properly.

[SlapHappy]

You're describing recieving incoming sniper fire from a rubbled building at dawn. Its only in Chuck Norris movies that snipers conveniently silhouette themselves in a doorway. If you, the player, have discerned that you're getting incoming from X location feel free to lay down as much suppressive fire as you like without first spotting the unit.

The game doesn't model a response to hearing the sound of a shot from a building's direction. I'm reminded of a scene from the movie "Full Metal Jacket". A Marine unit (in Hue?) recieves incoming sniper fire and EVERYBODY opens up on an open window. No resulting enemy casualty that we can tell, but no return fire from that window either.

The scene you are referring to is the one where a lone soldier moves INTO the LOS of a sniper who has oversight into a protected courtyard area formed by the surrounding buildings. When the first man is aided by one of the squad members, he also moves into LOS and is shot. Note that none of the other squad members are actually in the snipers enfilade area, though they do not know that and blaze away at the buildings in frustration.

The character "Mother" moves into a position near a corner and is out of LOS until he peeks around the corner and is almost shot. This is how the squad is able to determine the relative position of where the enemy fire is coming from.

[Wengart]

They could of saved a whole lot of trouble just by popping smoke on the wounded guy.

[Yair Iny]

They could of saved a whole lot of trouble just by popping smoke on the wounded guy.

You're right of course, but then we wouldn't get the rest of that part of the movie to play out the same... You see, first the director wants us to build up our hatred of the sniper, by having him (or is it a he?) shoot up the wounded guys and the people who come to his aid, then he wants to reveal the final scene where our earlier hatred becomes oh so much more ambiguous... Great film, if not the most technically accurate.

[Dietrich]

Scenario designers need to make sniper teams crack/elite for people to get the results they seem to expect. The guys in the first couple of scenarios in the marines module are killing machines.

Yes, but in the first scenario of the USMC campaign the sniper teams are (IIRC) used to simulate Force Recon soldiers. As such, they're better trained, better motivated, and more experienced than the soldiers one would find in the sniper teams of an Army battalion or in the Scout/Sniper platoon of an MEU.

By contrast, in playing the USMC campaign I have found that the worth of the teams that make up the Scout/Sniper platoon is more in providing tactical recon than in inflicting casualties, though there have been times when a sniper has taken out a machine-gunner or a guy with an RPG.

[dan/california]

I didn't say the results they expect are realistic.

That said, there must be quite a few snipers in the U.S./British forces with multiple tours. And all of them are right the top of my list of people to never offend.

[Dietrich]

I didn't say the results they expect are realistic.

The results who expect?

That said, there must be quite a few snipers in the U.S./British forces with multiple tours.

Certainly. I just meant that there's a particular reason why the "snipers" in that scenario are Elite with very high Motivation

[dan/california]

The results who expect?

The people who start a thread titled "whats wrong with snipers?"

Certainly. I just meant that there's a particular reason why the "snipers" in that scenario are Elite with very high Motivation

The people who start a thread titled "whats wrong with snipers?"

[meade95]

What changes were made to "sniper" labled soldiers in patch 1.2?

Snipers have always been somewhat of an issue (lacking in capability, in one extent or another, firing accuracy, spotting abilities, not being spotted, etc).....and IIRC, their performance were tweaked (higher) in patch 1.11 (looking to address some of these short-comings)......

Have they been tweaked again?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

And why are snipers still so snobbish about ordinary 7.62mm? I wish they could just grab a few regular 7.62 out of the back and use that. Just weird to have a guy with a rifle sit out a battle because he ran out of 7.62 sniper rounds with piles and piles of 7.62 in every vehicle.

[JonS]

Well, from accounts of soldiers I've read from WWII onwards, they DO often know it's a sniper doing the shooting rather than some other enemy. I guess this could just be situational awareness. A single crack that drops a man near you rather than dozens of rounds hitting your genenal area but not hitting anyone.

Not quite. Veterans often claim they were being shot at by snipers, but I give that about as much credence as the claim that every German tank was a Tiger, and every German artillery round was fired by an 88.

I am actually a bit confused by your question as it sounds like you are having a joke or something. Maybe you meant I'd be dead with the first shot?

No, not a joke. It's an age old problem. Every one thinks they're being shot at by snipers (perhaps because it personalises and humanises what is essentially an inhuman experience), but invariably they aren't since - to a first approximation - basically no one is shot, or even shot at, by snipers.

Part of the battle drill IAs includes a phase called "Reaction to Effective Enemy Fire." The reaction part is easy (dash, down, crawl, start pepper-potting). The tricky bit is trying to figure out whether the fire is effective. You are claiming that troops not only know the fire is effective, but that they KNOW it comes from a sniper.