Scipio Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I've noticed that the CMSF British modul and base game manuals for v1.2 has been released as online publication. Seems we are getting closer to the release Can we have the manuals as PDF for download ? Watching them online is a bit cumbersome! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Can we have the manuals as PDF for download No. But you can have them as PDF together with the game when you buy it PS. This time including a print-friendly version, by the way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 No. But you can have them as PDF together with the game when you buy it Okay. *Watching my clock* Still waiting for the release.... *watching again* *sight* Ain't yet released? Ii's been minutes since I've asked... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chainsaw Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 My girlfriend is out of town today, so release it NOW and I have 5 long hours to play before jobb 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Wow, look at that, British 'Spy" forces field a silver Aston Martin DB5 with a passenger ejector seat and tiny rockets that fire out of the headlights! Cool! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 The list of changes to the engine (pages 213 and 214 of the CM:SF 1.20 manual) is not as impressive as I expected it to be. Seems that a lot of resources are devoted to CM:Normandy already ... Best regards, Thomm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Can we have the patch info, please, pretty please? I am truly pathetic, looking forward to it none the less. I will head off to the refresh monkey thread to further demonstrate my idiocy.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 The list of changes to the engine (pages 213 and 214 of the CM:SF 1.20 manual) is not as impressive as I expected it to be. Seems that a lot of resources are devoted to CM:Normandy already ... Best regards, ThommI assume they are not all listed in the manual, especially a greater number of small improvements. At least I hope so. Doesn't makes to much sense for a version jump from 1.11 to 1.20 otherwise, does it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Doesn't make to much sense for a version jump from 1.11 to 1.20 otherwise, does it? I think these numbers only indicate which module the patch comes with, not the actual extent of the improvements. Best regards, Thomm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chainsaw Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 On the other hand, look at point 7. "Muzzle flame,smoke,dust and other effects directly attached to enemy unit behavior are no longer shown unless the unit is already spotted by atleast one friendly Soldier" :eek: just that point is a HUGE improvement in my eyes... hoppefully it means no more dustclouds showing where enemy vehicles are moving 1km away from where I can see with own eyes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Correct, smaller changes are not listed. The v1.20 readme will contain the full list including bug fixes and tons of smaller items changed or improved. That list is very long. The manual focuses on the bigger things and also those that are interface-relevant. Having said that... since when is it "par for expectations" that a patch is providing new stuff at all except bug fixes? Did I miss something? You guys need to get out more often 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 The same thing could be said about this module/patch! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 max mission time upped to 4 houers!!!! this is awsome, i can revisite this one mission i have wich cant be properly compleated in 120 turns. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivodsi Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Good to see a way to transfer campaign missions, but for PBEMS I guess we'll have to rely on the old method of keeping 1.11 on our 'puters... .. right? Of course, the manual comes out in the only hour in the day when I'm away from my house. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfhand Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 On the other hand, look at point 7. "Muzzle flame,smoke,dust and other effects directly attached to enemy unit behavior are no longer shown unless the unit is already spotted by atleast one friendly Soldier" :eek: just that point is a HUGE improvement in my eyes... hoppefully it means no more dustclouds showing where enemy vehicles are moving 1km away from where I can see with own eyes. I am happy to see this also... I understand that these things are all compromises, so I don't intend for this to be viewed a criticism, but I have to ask, is there a spotting bonus when these effects are within the LOS of a friendly unit and the unit creating them has not yet been spotted? I would think that the muzzle flashes one sees in 1.11 firefights from unspotted units would add a spotting bonus when they are within LOS of a unit. Then there are the times when vehicles are driven in gullies or behind ridgelines that are well within los while the vehicle is not. I'm assuming the dust cloud created will not be seen because the vehicle hasn't yet been spotted while in real life it would. Again, not complaining or seeking justification and glad for the change, just wondering about the full impact of the change and some of the thinking that went into it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 As Moon pointed out, the Manual does not detail anything other than major game feature changes. Minor ones, bug fixes, tweaks, etc. are all in the ReadMe. As we said from the start, major changes to a Family will happen only within the initial period of support (which for CM:SF was about 12 months, but going forward probably only 4-6 months). After that significant, but not major, stuff will go into the patches. Otherwise we'll constantly be giving away new game features for free. That's not a viable economic model for us BTW, we've changed the concept for Manuals going forward. The primary manual will be updated with each major patch. It will include an addendum (as this one does) of significant changes to game features. We will not roll these back into the original text because we think that could get confusing. The new content which comes in Modules will also be in the primary manual and not broken out as separate stand alone manuals. We think keeping everything in one spot is a better thing to do than have it scattered about. sfhand, is there a spotting bonus when these effects are within the LOS of a friendly unit and the unit creating them has not yet been spotted? No, there was never a spotting bonus assigned to the special effects. However, a player could scour the map looking for such effects and gain a bonus through such behavior. Which we came to agree with the critics that this wasn't a good idea. It rewards one group of players to the detriment of another. Then there are the times when vehicles are driven in gullies or behind ridgelines that are well within los while the vehicle is not. I'm assuming the dust cloud created will not be seen because the vehicle hasn't yet been spotted while in real life it would. This was our justification for keeping the special effects in the game up until now. On balance, however, it wasn't very realistic since so many different conditions would determine if you saw the dust or not, while in v1.11 and earlier it was 100% seen 100% of the time all the time. As you say, it's all about compromises and tradeoffs. We were resistant to change until v1.20 because we felt the way we had it was the better set of compromises and tradeoffs. But over time we came to agree that the way it is in v1.20 is overall better than the way it was in v1.11. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 Good point, sfhand! I had the 'muzzle flash' issue in a recent battle. I saw the muzzle flash, but non of my units was able to locate the vehicel, even if some had LOS to the area. Not very logic, since muzzle flashes are especially at night like jumping up and down and screaming 'I'm hear, shoot at me', what's likely one of the reasons why somebody developed the flash suppressor. Regarding the dust: similiar thing. Spotting dust was invented as new feature in CMAK, IIRC. It is a good feature, the only unlogic point is that we are able to see dust when we have no LOS to the area. If we see the dust, but not the vehicel, the dust shouldn't be turned off, but the suspected vehicel position should be marked with a '?'-icon, and dust should only be invisible if we have no LOS to the position of the dust cloud, for example when it's behind a hill. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 well it would be verry "odd" or uncommon to tie something like a spotting bonus to something wich is only a graphical representation for the eyes of the player. i mean, the muzzle flashes are NOT gone for the "engine". means it makes entirely no difference to your "man", if you, the "player" cant see this eye candy stuff under certain conditions. EDIT Spotting dust was invented as new feature in CMAK....only unlogic point is that we are able to see dust when we have no LOS to the area. this should tell you that you can NOT spott dust, it is ALLWAYS drawn, wich shows through the fact that you can see it all the time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Firing your weapon and moving makes you more visible anyway so I don't see the problem people have. Hiding Muzzle flash and dust from an unspotted unit can only be a good thing IMO 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Hiding Muzzle flash and dust from an unspotted unit can only be a good thing IMO i tried to think about any negative side this could have i found none, so it was a no brainer to get this done like it seems to work with 1.20 now. good stuff. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 i mean, the muzzle flashes are NOT gone for the "engine".Is it just your opinion, or do you know this? this should tell you that you can NOT spott dust, it is ALLWAYS drawn, wich shows through the fact that you can see it all the time. I'm not sure if I understand this sentence. You may not be able to spott a vehicel driving behind a wall, for example, but the dust cloud may visible anyway, when it rises above the wall. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Is it just your opinion, or do you know this? id say its an educated guess it is simply not common to do this. i mean i cant prove it, that for sure but to get "any" engine to interpret graphics into "information" is not good or by any mean practical. this is like you want to have "dust" spotted. it would need to be any entity(a unit) or what it is called, but its only graphical so you cant do that. BUT you can "switch it off" graphicaly with a shortcut and the smoke is still there for the engine. cant say it better then this. also this should answer the 2nd quote of youres. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 I guess I understand what you mean. Regarding the visible muzzle flashes, I agree that it's not wrong that they are removed from the players eye if the firing unit ain't visible to the player, but my critic was about Steve's statement 'No, there was never a spotting bonus assigned to the special effects.', what implies that muzzle fire doesn't rises the chance for a unit to be spotted, no matter if the effect is displayed or not. But this might be a missunderstanding from me. Anyway, I still think that dust of unspotted units should be visible independly from the unit itself, what would mean that unit and dust have each their own 'spotting value'. Yes, dust can be switched of (I think), but unit icons can be switched off, too. But if this is done, the player looses nearly all overview about the units on the battlefield, friendly or not, spotted or not. What's the sense of it, except a for taking a nice screenshot? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 to the special effects you need to seperate more between what "you see" and what the "engine is seeing". steve said "special effects" and i strongly guess that this means graphical effects. lets say it like this, when the enemy fires you wont see any muzzleflashes and the like anymore unless eny is spotted. but the engine and so your soldiers do get a "verry obviouse" spotting bonus when the enemy fires, after all you only really spot stationary enemys when they fire, no matter through what that is, a mix of dust and muzzle flash or whatever for the engine. but in the end the muzzle flashes you "see" do mean nothing for the engine to do its thing. and the dust was said by steve to be a resource thingy if i remember right. in dry maps with many vehicles the spotting calculations would go up quiet a lot just for "dust" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 When a unit fires it increases the chance of being spotted. Very true. But it is the simulated act of shooting that is what increases the chance of being spotted, not the graphical representation. Which means now that we've turned off unspotted unit special effects the chances of spotting the unit, or not, have not changed a bit. (edit... this is what Pandur just said) There is no practical way to "spot" dust, smoke, or exhaust. Dust and smoke, by their nature, are not of a uniform and predictable shape. Computers hate processing such information So it has always been a choice... either you always spot all dust/smoke/exhaust all the time, every time, regardless of spotting the unit making it *or* you show dust/smoke/exhaust only after the unit has already been spotted. There is no third choice, unfortunately. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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