A diatribe on Red behaviour under fire

[missinginreality]

Does any one else feel the Red side is a little under-represented in the courage and gusto department? I seem to be feeling constantly frustrated, even with veterans, when my carefully laid plans fall apart within literally a second of receiving fire; they seem to either get pinned immediately or crawl around what looks like aimlessly looking for somewhere to hide.

I actually really enjoy playing red side in my PBEM's but it gets a bit downheartening as every time I go to execute some nice tactical piece that looks on paper to be a foregone conclusion, the little pixeldevils fall apart the moment my opponent starts firing anywhere near their general direction.

In my latest disappointment I had an RPG team hiding very nicely behind a tall wall with a covering arc of fire down an alley perpendicular to them. No one could see them, they were very safe.I even told them so.You know how it is

A Stryker a block away starts firing over the wall into the building across the road from them. A wide road away from them. Yet literally seconds later this RPG team shows PINNED, crawl around aimlessly, into a building that is in LOF from another Blue team and get nicely mowed down. Was a very sad moment and one which in PBEM one just has to sit and watch helplessly as the slaughter unfolds.

It's odd though because I don't seem to see this in Red AI behaviour; when playing Blue against Red AI, Red seem a lot more vigorous.

Is this just me, my perceptions getting negative coz am always on the losing side? Or are there darker workings afoot? Enquiring minds want to know.

[Apocal]

Does any one else feel the Red side is a little under-represented in the courage and gusto department? I seem to be feeling constantly frustrated, even with veterans, when my carefully laid plans fall apart within literally a second of receiving fire; they seem to either get pinned immediately or crawl around what looks like aimlessly looking for somewhere to hide.

Have you ever had an American squad take an RPG hit? Instantly pinned and they will happily curl up into balls and let the Syrians park a half dozen more around them.

I actually really enjoy playing red side in my PBEM's but it gets a bit downheartening as every time I go to execute some nice tactical piece that looks on paper to be a foregone conclusion, the little pixeldevils fall apart the moment my opponent starts firing anywhere near their general direction.

In my latest disappointment I had an RPG team hiding very nicely behind a tall wall with a covering arc of fire down an alley perpendicular to them. No one could see them, they were very safe.I even told them so.You know how it is

A Stryker a block away starts firing over the wall into the building across the road from them. A wide road away from them. Yet literally seconds later this RPG team shows PINNED, crawl around aimlessly, into a building that is in LOF from another Blue team and get nicely mowed down. Was a very sad moment and one which in PBEM one just has to sit and watch helplessly as the slaughter unfolds.

OK, let's step back and think about this for a second. A Stryker, using either a M2HB or Mk19 or maybe even 105mm gun is firing over their heads from a block away. And, if I'm reading you correctly, think they shouldn't be pinned down and/or in search of a new place to hide? Huh?

Plus consider that most Syrian squads don't have radios that work reliably in urban terrain. Very likely they had no clue the building they chose to occupy was in the LoS to the Americans. They literally only know, what they know. And in built-up terrain with a lot line of sight breaks, that can be very damned little.

It's odd though because I don't seem to see this in Red AI behaviour; when playing Blue against Red AI, Red seem a lot more vigorous.

Assymmetric perception: when you're fighting the REDFOR, the RPG seems like it's 10 feet tall and fueled by shattered hopes and broken bodies. When you're fighting the BLUFOR, it seems like all the .50cals and 40mm GMGs they possess spray hate and discontent like a runaway hose.

Is this just me, my perceptions getting negative coz am always on the losing side? Or are there darker workings afoot? Enquiring minds want to know.

I have a vague theory in my head that the splitability of the American squads allows for one team to be pinned, but the other team to be semi-functional, even when still combined. Syrian units are much more inclined to be rendered ineffective if the boss doesn't want to work anymore. This may or may not be a real factor, but it might explain why even "veteran" Syrians don't seem to be the equal of Americans.

[stikkypixie]

I have found that those [+1] or [-2], really makes a difference. You can have a veteran squad but [-2] morale, will make your guys curl up in no time.

[missinginreality]

OK, let's step back and think about this for a second. A Stryker, using either a M2HB or Mk19 or maybe even 105mm gun is firing over their heads from a block away. And, if I'm reading you correctly, think they shouldn't be pinned down and/or in search of a new place to hide? Huh?

Well if you put it like that......still, I guess I was thinking 'that there Stryker can't see us here if we just stay still and keep our heads down we'll be fine' - that's what I was hoping they'd be thinking anyway.

Plus consider that most Syrian squads don't have radios that work reliably in urban terrain. Very likely they had no clue the building they chose to occupy was in the LoS to the Americans. They literally only know, what they know. And in built-up terrain with a lot line of sight breaks, that can be very damned little.

Yes, good point and well worth me remembering that one- what I can see isn't neccessarily what they can hey.

Assymmetric perception: when you're fighting the REDFOR, the RPG seems like it's 10 feet tall and fueled by shattered hopes and broken bodies. When you're fighting the BLUFOR, it seems like all the .50cals and 40mm GMGs they possess spray hate and discontent like a runaway hose.

Ha - nicely put. True enough too; as Blue seeing those little RPG icons can cause a lot of consternation and reaching for the "blanket of suppressive fire from all fronts" button.

I have a vague theory in my head that the splitability of the American squads allows for one team to be pinned, but the other team to be semi-functional, even when still combined. Syrian units are much more inclined to be rendered ineffective if the boss doesn't want to work anymore. This may or may not be a real factor, but it might explain why even "veteran" Syrians don't seem to be the equal of Americans.

Could be true; I think the whole lack of splitting in Red does also put them at something of a disadvantage as I would imagine in RL any team over a few members in number is going to, say, split up to go both sides round a building or something.

I have found that those [+1] or [-2], really makes a difference. You can have a veteran squad but [-2] morale, will make your guys curl up in no time.

Ah maybe it's a morale thing then - thanks SP I'll have a look next time I'm playing, I just saw the Veteran thing and thought they really should've done better in that instance but true enough, morale would be an imprtant factor too.

Cheers for the thoughts so far folks; given me a lot to think about and possibly re-evaluate victory conditions and the like in my own scenarios. One that I am working on at the moment is trying to balance Red's points with very strict Blue casualty limits as I see victory for each side as very different in terms of what one can consider a "success" or not. Thus actually re-evaluating red's performance on the field not by Blue standards but by their own.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

stikkypixie is right. How quickly they get pinned is not just dependent on Experience. It's also HIGHLY dependent on Motivation. I've seen Green or even Conscript Combatants with Extreme morale take quite a few more shots than I'd have liked to suppress them!

If you want to play the Syrian side and use forces that aren't irregulars but that usually have high experience and motivation, I'd recommend using Airborne or Special Forces soldiers.

[Taki]

Does any one else feel the Red side is a little under-represented in the courage and gusto department?

*add* in any single Aspect of the Game

[Delta228]

OK, to be fair, it even says in the manual that the Syrians WILL lose this hypothetical war. I agree with Taki, the Syrians are worse than the Americans (and soon to be British ) in every way, however, they can still inflict some serious hurt on them. The Syrians are using outdated equipment, outdated tactics, and outdated tactical doctrines. They are fighting the most technically advanced military in human history that is filled with well trained, well motivated individuals who are extremely proficient at what they do, so i think its safe to assume that the Syrians are inferior.

However, the Syrians are not worthless. They simply fight a different kind of war than the US military. If you try to fight an M1 with some T-72s and 2000 yards, you will probably lose every time. If you try to engage American infantry at 800 years, you will probably lose every time. While playing Red, if you fight on the enemy's terms, which in this case is a long ranged conflict where they can simply blast or arty you into submission, your battle will end in humiliating defeat.

That being said, the Red forces fight a different type of war. They are obligated to do so by the massive technological and training benefits that the American military provides. That type of war is an up-close and personal, short ranged ambush strategy. At 200 meters, that 4 million dollar M1 Abrams isn't that much different than a T-62. All the American technological benefits go flying out the window as soon as they close with your forces. So playing smart, the Red forces are just as effective at killing as the US.

Now, about morale: The game is supposed to be realistic, not fair. Many of the Red troops are conscripts or troops levied from their homes against their will. Plus they also know what i said in my first paragraph: that they are facing the military that is best at killing them. This, understandably makes them frightened, before the shooting even starts. In relation to your example, I get the feeling that many of us who are not trained soldiers, if conscripted, would be crawling on the ground if 40mm grenades were whizzing over our heads too.

[cabal23]

Let's hope that the temperate module gives us an army worth a crap. I hope we see Russians. I think we would have a much better fight on our hands. Our luck it will be Somali pirates.

[zmoney]

Our luck it will be Somali pirates.

Hahahahha, this gave me a laugh because its probably true. I remember when there was all the speculation going on about what this game was going to cover. I was hoping for a cold war setting and to be honest when they anounced it was going to be a modern setting I didn't think it would be very cool. But I was wrong and love the setting now.

[missinginreality]

Now, about morale: The game is supposed to be realistic, not fair. Many of the Red troops are conscripts or troops levied from their homes against their will. Plus they also know what i said in my first paragraph: that they are facing the military that is best at killing them. This, understandably makes them frightened, before the shooting even starts. In relation to your example, I get the feeling that many of us who are not trained soldiers, if conscripted, would be crawling on the ground if 40mm grenades were whizzing over our heads too.

Yes good point and I just checked through a lot of the guys who are getting pinned and performing hopelessly and true enough their morales is all like, -2. Explains a lot.

I kind of like the way it's "not fair" as you said and indeed, playing Red leads one to really rethink.

[Apocal]

*add* in any single Aspect of the Game

I'm sorry, but I'm a tad skeptical that the typical VBIED is capable of knocking out a Bradley and a Stryker parked appoximately 20 meters away. The aforementioned murder-machine that is the RPG. The sheer numbers of Uncon antitank weapons that make vehicles a virtual no-go in some scenarios. The fact that Syrians get fortifications with overhead cover and the US doesn't, thankfully balanced by the fact that Syrian artillery is generally a use-early-or-lose-quickly proposition.

That being said, the Syrians certainly are disadvantaged in most standup fights, but scenario design can generally make up for the deficiencies they have.

EDIT: And honestly, I never really paid much attention to morale or leadership modifiers. Probably should start doing that.

[Delta228]

I had a VBIED take out three AAVs in one go once. They were all parked in a staging area and the car just drove up and blasted all three of them. Made me very angry.

[Dietrich]

That being said, the Red forces fight a different type of war. They are obligated to do so by the massive technological and training benefits that the American military provides. That type of war is an up-close and personal, short ranged ambush strategy.

All the American technological benefits go flying out the window as soon as they close with your forces. So playing smart, the Red forces are just as effective at killing as the US.

At minimum range, virtually nothing in the US arsenal is safe from Red forces.

At 200 meters, that 4 million dollar M1 Abrams isn't that much different than a T-62.

Even more so: M1 cruises down a side street, passes 20 meters in front of a T-55 parked in an alley...

about morale: The game is supposed to be realistic, not fair. Many of the Red troops are conscripts or troops levied from their homes against their will. Plus they also know what i said in my first paragraph: that they are facing the military that is best at killing them. This, understandably makes them frightened, before the shooting even starts.

Conversely, among the Red forces there are those who are much less frightened than any Blue forces -- i.e., they're fanatical. The conscript factor would, I think, be at least partially offset by the Syrians' imperative to defend their homes and such.

many of us who are not trained soldiers, if conscripted, would be crawling on the ground if 40mm grenades were whizzing over our heads too.

The Syrians do have automatic grenade launchers, after all. =P

I hope we see Russians. I think we would have a much better fight on our hands. Our luck it will be Somali pirates.

However implausible or similar to the first mission in Call of Duty 4 it might seem, I'd dig sending a dozen or so Deltas to stick it to a Somali pirate gang aboard their own ship. Or sending a hundred or so Blackwater mercenaries to raid a Somali pirate base (which is at least somewhat less implausible, since Blackwater already has a ship outfitted to fight pirates in the Indian Ocean....)

[Apocal]

I had a VBIED take out three AAVs in one go once. They were all parked in a staging area and the car just drove up and blasted all three of them. Made me very angry.

If that happened while they were loaded, I would probably ragequit the game.

[purpheart23]

I know what you mean Apocal, sometimes it just gets the best of us no matter how well we think we have it figured out.