Fixed Wing Apaches

[Woodmeister]

Has anyone else noticed how unrealistic the Apaches are? If I want them to attack a bunch of Syrian Tanks, I have to call in a succession of air support missions, one tank at a time. The Apache overflies the target like a fixed wing plane, releases a missile and zooms off. I then have to call it back again to attack the next tank and so on... This also means persuading the Syrian Tanks to hold still while my JTAC calls in successive support missions against them in full view of my own positions.

A real Apache can kill muiltiple tanks in a matter of seconds. If only I could reproduce this in CMSF! As for the cannon and hydra rockets, I'm amazed at how far away I can position my own troops and still get friendly fire casualties from stray shots.

It would be difficult to simulate fixed wing air support accurately in CMSF. The Apache is designed to hang back at standoff distances (5km all weather) and pick off targets from further away than they are likely to even notice it from until it's too late. Calling in an air support mission would probably consist of calling the Apaches forward, specifying loiter time and preferred target choice, then they pull back into "air alert" until called for again.

Any thoughts?

[zmoney]

This also means persuading the Syrian Tanks to hold still while my JTAC calls in successive support missions against them in full view of my own positions.

Calling in an air support mission would probably consist of calling the Apaches forward, specifying loiter time and preferred target choice, then they pull back into "air alert" until called for again.

Any thoughts?

I'm pretty sure once you select the tank to be destroyed even if the tank gets out of your view the chopper will still attack it. At least this was the case for me on a couple of missions. The crappy thing is they"ll attack it even if it has already been destroyed.

I think your solution is a great idea and would be a great addition to the game.

[Woodmeister]

I'm satisfied with the way the Apache kills its target, I'd just prefer it if it killed all of it's buddies at the same time!

[Martin Krejcirik]

Has anyone else noticed how unrealistic the Apaches are? If I want them to attack a bunch of Syrian Tanks, I have to call in a succession of air support missions, one tank at a time. The Apache overflies the target like a fixed wing plane, releases a missile and zooms off. I then have to call it back again to attack the next tank Any

Select an area target, it will kill anything it finds. It would be better if there were 'target armor' or 'target infantry' area commands, but the current one more or less works too.

[missinginreality]

I've also noticed that a unit calling in on a "strike vehicle" point target will track that vehicle if it moves

[Woodmeister]

In my experience, using area target has the Apache shotgun the general area with rockets and chaingun rounds. It doesn't seem to use missiles against vehicles unless I point target one of them.

[stikkypixie]

In my experience, using area target has the Apache shotgun the general area with rockets and chaingun rounds. It doesn't seem to use missiles against vehicles unless I point target one of them.

I think it might depend on the load out. I've seen helicopter strikes take out several tanks with hellfires using area target.

[SgtMuhammed]

Same here. If you target an individual vehicle then you are, in effect, telling the pilot, "You get this one we can handle the others." An area fire mission will tell the pilot to roam around and shoot up things for a while. Apaches with an AT rather than a Ground support loadout will have more Hellfires.

[stikkypixie]

What I am curious is why there's a a maximum radius of 400m. Is this a real life thing or a game thing?

[SgtMuhammed]

Good question. I think I meant to ask this myself but got distracted. I'll see what I can find out.

[Erwin.Rommel]

I suppose the real issue with the area target of the air support is the scope of the area is too small,the maximum radius is just 400m,while a JTAC calling an Apache air support,it usually takes 7+mins,During the 7mins,Enemy tanks can easily get out of the killing zone and from my experiences the Apache in CMSF is sure to ignore the targets that is not in the killing zone.since sometimes you can not assume the enemy's movement,It makes the air support useless.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Well, I agree the system isn't dynamic enough to be a realistic representation. In real operations there will be a constant back and forth of query and feedback between the aircraft and the controller, making adjustments as needed.

Then again, what you are asking for is equally unrealistic. It would essentially mean the aircraft would be let of the leash to do as they please. Given the somewhat chequered history of CAS, letting CAS pick it's own targets would result in very nervous troops.

It's my understanding nothing gets shot at without someone on the ground giving directions. In CMSF that is you. Expecting the AI to adapt to to changes on the battlefield is asking too much. Given the incidents that occur with actual human controllers, one dreads to think what job the AI would do. I think it's best to let human players be the dominant factor. Us players have a long and justified dislike of the AI improvising on orders we give. It rarely does what we had in mind.

Though if the "adjust target" would be a tad bit quicker I'd be very happy.

[stikkypixie]

I don't think there is adjust target for CAS, not during the initial 7 minutes at least. If this could be change that would be of some help.

[Woodmeister]

It would be hard to simulate, but if the helicopter has good C2 links, it should know where friendly troops are and thus where NOT to attack. In practice, the Apaches are a menace to friend and foe alike. If you call in an air support mission, expect to take casualties from stray rockets and cannon rounds, regardless of distance from the target.

[jenrick]

For CAS I'd say you should be able to adjust the location at anytime short of ordinance being in the air. It's not like there's a physical 90 second period where the rounds been fired and it's in the air subject to nothing but physics. The aircraft may have to abort its pass and set up again if it's on a direct fire or dumb bomb run, but beyond that it shouldn't affect much. An aircraft dropping a PGM from 15k+ can change the impact point with ease even while the PGM's in the air (though I can understand not messing with that). An Apache at worst is going to have to move to onside or the other of the battlefield to have good terrain masking before launching, and that's assuming you tell it at the last minute that the target is now on the otherside of the battlefield.

Actual CAS operations are going to have a running commentary on where moving targets are, where they appear to be heading, and how fast. The pilot should have a very good idea where everything is when they come in hot or pop up over a hill.

-Jenrick

[Apocal]

Has anyone else noticed how unrealistic the Apaches are? If I want them to attack a bunch of Syrian Tanks, I have to call in a succession of air support missions, one tank at a time. The Apache overflies the target like a fixed wing plane, releases a missile and zooms off.

This is realistic. Watch any footage from OIF I, the initial invasion, and you'll see the kind of slashing attacks presented in CMSF. We (re)learned some very hard lessons about helicopter employment in Shah-e-kot Valley, among them hovering in one place is not conducive to survival.

A real Apache can kill muiltiple tanks in a matter of seconds. If only I could reproduce this in CMSF!

Any attack guys are free to chime in here, but I don't believe that's ever been done in combat.

It would be difficult to simulate fixed wing air support accurately in CMSF. The Apache is designed to hang back at standoff distances (5km all weather) and pick off targets from further away than they are likely to even notice it from until it's too late.

For interdiction perhaps. For CAS, I've never seen or read a post-flight that described hanging back from 5km and blasting stuff.

Any thoughts?

CMSF gets it mostly right and in my experience, they do nail multiple tanks in one call, although not one pass (that I've noticed). OTOH, I've never used point for CAS.

[ChrisND]

It would be hard to simulate, but if the helicopter has good C2 links, it should know where friendly troops are and thus where NOT to attack. In practice, the Apaches are a menace to friend and foe alike. If you call in an air support mission, expect to take casualties from stray rockets and cannon rounds, regardless of distance from the target.

Check the minimum safe distance for calling in CAS...

[Chainsaw]

Check the minimum safe distance for calling in CAS...

Wich is?:confused: