Pandur Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 a short one; last time i asked, TCP/ip wego was not ruled out and the plan to possibly include it with the Normandy game(hopefully also retrofited to CMSF) was still standing. now, thats some good month ago, and we heared nothing about it so far. that could either mean it got ditched silently or nothing changed but there are no news about it wich would be worth it. so iam here to ask, is TCP/ip WEGO with replay still planed to be realized anytime in the future??? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzermartin Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 How about a pausable RT mode? It will be the same thing but with limited time points per side plus the ability to interfere with your troops in real time. Some kind of replay feature would be nice though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 No, TCP/IP WeGo with replay is not going to happen for CM Normandy. At least not the initial release. It's an extremely time consuming and difficult feature to pull off and we don't feel now is the right time to do attempt it. However, we are trying for TCP/IP WeGo without replay for the Normandy release. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzermartin Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Please cosnider the RT option with limited pauses! It might cause some traffic jam with overload of moves after each pause but if its technically possible it will be an ideal solution between the archaic WEGO and the run and gun RT. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 ...archaic WEGO... Blasphemy and Communism! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Heh! Yes, we are also planning to allow RT to pause. We've got a couple ideas about how to do that exactly, but at this point I can't say what the final method will be. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzermartin Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Great! I had been imagining something like a preset number of pauses and "time points" ala the chess clock but allowing both players to share the pauses. It would be a bit unfair if a player can plan a precise encirclement movement with his tanks while the other wont be able to place a single order. Also, a time delay with a ticker before the pause takes place. It shoulnt be immediate, cause many would manipulate this at suspicious moments (Oops a Panther just over the hill..lets pause and instantly retreat the whole M4 platoon before he gets a shot..and gamey tricks like that) . A solid and fun multiplayer CMX2 will attract a new base of players and hopefully extend to a lively community like the IL-2 series, with a dedicated lobby, detailed virtual wars and so on. Heh.. Sorry for the "Archaic".. WEGO was a beloved system for years but as its been a long time since I played it, it seems a bit distant as gaming memory 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted October 6, 2008 Author Share Posted October 6, 2008 ARGH!!! TCP/ip WEGO "without" replay!? i have to sit down for a moment... oh well, change is everywhere, i have to take it unfortunately i see no real point in haveing this system without replay as the replay makes the "point" behind it. i dont know what to say anymore... "At least not the initial release" at least not all hopes are shattered. its like the replay is essential to WEGO, otherwhise its really no different to RT with fixed pause. you cant look up all the cool stuff and drool about you local victorys and failures. whatever, i know you know exactly what i mean as all was said X tousend times befor. its just like i play this great game single player since its release and i really would like to play a human and i hoped for classical(with replay) TCP/ip WEGO for the normandy game so much. ...RT is no option for me, and PBEM, well its PBEM and doesnt make for a good game played over one evening in some, or some more houers. now iam really sorry for this whining but i couldnt do else right now, i have nothing constructive to say right now but wasnt in the mood to not answer the thread i created. "A solid and fun multiplayer CMX2 "will" attract a new base of players..." it does already, for some it started with the release, for me it started right here and right now, feeling like something old wich needs replacement(heck iam 25) thanks for the honest answer steve; 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Ali-Baba, Great! I had been imagining something like a preset number of pauses and "time points" ala the chess clock but allowing both players to share the pauses. Yes, something like that. As you say, you can't just allow people to hit pause whenever they want or the game will likely be extremely frustrating for one or both players. We've got some ideas for a fairly elaborate system, but we think we'll likely introduce it in stages if we can't squeeze it all in at once. Pandur, unfortunately i see no real point in haveing this system without replay as the replay makes the "point" behind it. It's a fair question, for sure. There are three things about WeGo that make it different from RealTime: 1. Replaying the last 60 seconds of action as many times, from as many locations, as the player wishes (at least when played single player). 2. Predictable "pauses" in the action to sort things out and get things into shape for the next period of time. 3. Inability to mess with things during the "action" portion of a turn. This means that the turn's worth of activity is out of the control of both players equally. WeGo without replay has #2 and #3 to offer, which makes it a very different game experience from RealTime. Not perfect, granted, but I do think it's worth doing. It's akin to the CMx1 fast clock option where you only get enough time to watch the turn about one time. It's not fundamentally different from WeGo, just not as fancy. As you said, Pandur, RealTime is not an option for you and PBEM is just too time consuming. WeGo without replay gives you the pacing/control that RealTime doesn't, yet the speed which PBEM lacks. I think you'll like it even though I'm sure you would like it more with replay. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Ok, at least that is clear enough. No WEGO option (at least not as we knew it) in the Normandy release but hopefully a "WEGO Light" option that at least let's us catch up with the action from time to time. ...and the door not completely closed on "real" WEGO. So, Steve a final question from us at the Byte Battler site; will there ever be a pause and or save function in the present game? As it is a multiplayer battle without either is not a very attractive proposition, especially as the TCP play still seem a bit unstable (though that has been considerably improved in 1.10 and I'm confident you'll get it completely sorted in the next patch or two) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Balboa Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Ok, at least that is clear enough. No WEGO option (at least not as we knew it) in the Normandy release but hopefully a "WEGO Light" option that at least let's us catch up with the action from time to time. ...and the door not completely closed on "real" WEGO. This was not my understandin at all .... Did Steve say there would be no WEGO for CM Normandy ? I thought he said there would be no replay for TCP/IP WEGO ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 uh, yeah... that's what I meant by a "WEGO Light" option. An option where you can have the game periodically pause. Perhaps I should have called it PRTMP instead. (Pausable Real Time Multiplayer). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Balboa Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 As long as CM-Normandy has WEGO w/replay against the AI and WEGO w/replay for PBEM, then I'm satisfied .... I thought for a moment there that we were taking a step backwards .... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tactical Wargamer Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 OK so I'm still a little confused. I always play LAN games with friends and really have made over 10+ converts to the platform using TCP/IP turn based. The problem that I really have with CMSF is that one cannot have both MP's completing their turn simultaneously. Instead one has to wait what 5-20 mins in order to complete it. I take it WEGO turn completions is completely dead? (if it was ever alive?) So if WEGO gets killed or WEGO light isn't happening PLEASE can we get PRTMP..... Not sure what hang up is for Pausable Real Time Multiplayer. Is this a real big coding issue? I mean if you agree to allow pauses with your opponent what is the big deal if they use them say every couple minutes or in stressful situations every 20 seconds? I mean we don't want this awesome tactical simulation to turn into a click fest do we? I hope BF allows user settings with this regard. No one likes being rushed. If you think your opponent isn't quick enough just don't play them 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfhand Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 A few random thoughts on this... I play WEGO pbem most of the time so the tcp/ip issue isn't a big one for me. That said, I have played CMx1 tcp/ip wego before - I preferred pbem then too - and the only times I really enjoyed it were in a lan situation. My understanding of why full fledged tcp/ip WEGO isn't included has to do with bandwidth considerations many people face with their internet connection. I understand the resistance to putting a MP feature in a game that people with low bandwidth connections will complain about. However, there are a few games that only support lan MP, I assume because of this issue, and I'm wondering if supporting full fledged tcp/ip WEGO for lan usage is an option you have considered. (I'm pretty sure you've considered it as you guys never fail to impress me with the depth of your thought processes) For me it's not really an issue as I can still pass a memory stick back and forth when I play in a lan situation, however that form of sneakernet kind of ignores the technological advances of the last ~20 years... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 You know, I don't think allowing either player to pause when they want is such a bad thing. If you don't think they're playing fair just tell them and/or don't play them again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kulik Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 Heh! Yes, we are also planning to allow RT to pause. We've got a couple ideas about how to do that exactly, but at this point I can't say what the final method will be. Steve I think i can live with that. For the final method i suggest it could be partialy optionable to set how many pauses, how long with how much delay etc. How goes the work on multiple players per side? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonm Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 I realise there are difficulties but lack of replay in a WEGO over TCP/IP effectively negates what could have been a good teaching tool. The ability to setup a classroom (or isolated machines) and be able to review decisions and suggest alternatives is one on the main uses of simulation for post H hr review of plans. Now I know you are going to say “if some defence dept deposits $large amount it will be in there tomorrow”. But I know one of the good things about the ADF version of CMAK was that Trainees could review their actions during a turn from multiple angles and receive good feedback. Anyway I still live in hope. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted August 29, 2009 Author Share Posted August 29, 2009 sometimes i feel like a bullet on its way unable to change course by itself. in this case i have been fired at TCPip WEGO with replay, but the target is moving away as fast as i move towards it however i wont let go, and there is light at the end of the tunnel. TCPip WEGO is comming in normandy. this is a great step! this means, if ouer beloved BFC team wants to they can just slap in a replay later on *hopefully*. iam lobbying for TCPip WEGO wR since the game came out and i saw there is none. by now i came around to accept that rome wasnt build in one day, and neither is TCPip WEGO with replay 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 I'll restate our positions 1. We are not putting in TCP/IP WeGo with replay any time soon. Absolutely, and without any doubts, it will not show up in Normandy. Not even as a patch later on. There's no chance, and I mean less than zero, that this position will change. We've been clear about this for 2 years now and as we get towards the end of Normandy's development I can say for sure that this absolutely will not change. Period. 2. We are still hoping to get in TCP/IP WeGo without replay for Normandy. Ideally it would be in the initial release. It is still our goal to make this happen, however it is not something that we will allow to hold up the release of Normandy if we find we can't get it into the initial release. 3. We do plan on having a dynamic pause feature for TCP/IP RealTime. The feature will have rules and feature constraints (determined by the players) as to how often and how long pauses can be made. There will be an option, of course, to have no restrictions on this and just let the players sort out for themselves their own rules. We have no specific timeframe for this feature, but personally I would like to see it implemented as soon as possible. At this point "as soon as possible" is Bulge, not Normandy. 4. Eventually we would like to see TCP/IP WeGo with replay. The desire is definitely there. The problem is finding feature requests to sacrifice from our development schedule in order to free up the significant programming and testing resources to make this work. Our schedule is full and will always be full, thanks to the thousands of requests from you guys Therefore, taking a month or so out of our development schedule to get this working correctly (assuming we can) means major sacrifices to the rest of the game. Obviously people who are fanatics about TCP/IP WeGo with Replay might feel that such sacrifices are worth it without even knowing (or caring) what those sacrifices are. However, we think the majority of our customers will not be at all happy with such a development sacrifice. Which is why we currently have no plans on putting in TCP/IP WeGo with replay EVEN THOUGH we definitely (conceptually) want this feature into the game. Knowing that fighting with reality is a bad idea is step 1 in developer enlightenment. Knowing that a fight with reality can never be won is step 2 in developer enlightenment. We're at step 10 or 11 by now Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kulik Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 Seems fair to me. And what about kind of record feature? Like after the battle is over, option to "save this battle" into a file and then watch it like a movie with movable camera and forward/backward options, send it to friends to watch it and analyze tactical decision made... Im sure this will get the "too much work" stamp, but it would be great. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HetzerII Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 Talking about it... would it be possible to rework the tcp/ip code? I sometimes play with some friends and we always have trouble... loosing connection, having to pause due to waiting for data and such stuff. At the moment neither tcp/ip with its flaws (inability to do all the micro-manage, connection problems) nor the wego option via files (time-consuming and annoying) seems to be valid options for future multiplayer games. So if there´s only tcp/ip realtime in the near future, please sort out the biggest problems. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tactical Wargamer Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 A few random thoughts on this... For me it's not really an issue as I can still pass a memory stick back and forth when I play in a lan situation, however that form of sneakernet kind of ignores the technological advances of the last ~20 years... Well that is what we LAN guys have been resorting to. Problem is only one person can do a turn at a time. The other chap is stuck staring at the wall 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tactical Wargamer Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 You know, I don't think allowing either player to pause when they want is such a bad thing. If you don't think they're playing fair just tell them and/or don't play them again. 100% agree. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tactical Wargamer Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 But I know one of the good things about the ADF version of CMAK was that Trainees could review their actions during a turn from multiple angles and receive good feedback. Anyway I still live in hope. Sorry sir what is the ADF version? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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