Why Arabs Lose Wars--Important magazine article originally in MEQ

[John Kettler]

This two-part article, originally in MIDDLE EAST QUARTERLY should prove a revelation to most of you and old hat to those who've had to work with Arab military counterparts. It explains much, such as why the Syrians, save for elite forces, don't break into fireteams, but instead fight as entire squads. It explains the underlying basis for a string of Arab defeats, with some telling insider info from Arab commanders and leaders. It explains how client state relationships with the Russians only reinforced the existing military-political culture. And that's just the beginning. A most informative read! BTW, the writer misspoke in the penultimate paragraph. it should read "...when the surrounding culture is profoundly antidemocratic (as the Soviet Union's was)..." Somehow, he, the editors of MEQ and of AMERICAN DIPLOMACY all missed the gaffe.

Part 1

http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/AD_Issues/amdipl_17/articles/deatkine_arabs1.html

Part 2

http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/AD_Issues/amdipl_17/articles/deatkine_arabs2.html

Regards,

John Kettler

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I'm not spotting the gaffe.

[gman552]

John,

Thanks for the links to the articles - excellent reading.

Elmar,

The last sentence of the second-to-last paragraph of Part 2 incorrectly reads:

"It obviously makes a big difference, however, when the surrounding political culture is not only avowedly democratic (as was the Soviet Union’s), but functionally so." (emphasis added.)

[Elmar Bijlsma]

merriam-webster

Avowedly

1 : with open acknowledgment : frankly <an avowedly hostile review>

2 : by unsupported assertion or profession alone : allegedly <politicians remain skeptical of…avowedly democratic intentions

Seems to be correct. They did claim to be democratic.

[gman552]

Oh, you're correct - I forgot that it was a "democratic workers' paradise", just like East Germany - but that the reality and theory never seemed to match.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Yeah, any country with "Democratic" in its official name is almost certainly not. If I was given the choice to relocate to one of two countries, Murderania and the Democratic Republic of Daffodil, I'd be applying for Murderanian citizenship with hardly a thought.

[John Kettler]

Elmar Bijlsma,

Drat! Dropped a word from the quote. Having had no sleep since yesterday (now ~11:30 a.m. PDT), I blame it on exhaustion. Shall have to revisit the gaffe/no gaffe issue when rested, whatever that is!

gman552,

Glad you enjoyed the article!

Regards,

John Kettler

[handihoc]

Fascinating article. Thanks for posting it.

I am also impressed (and somewhat slightly alarmed) by the material in a couple of your other recent threads, here: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=83276

and

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=83274

As a non-military man with a lifelong interest in military history and development, as well as wargaming, I like the fact that I can come to this forum and learn, even if much of what I learn makes me less comfortable.

[John Kettler]

handihoc,

You're welcome! As for your discomfort, would that we had more people like you, for that would mean the various populaces of the so-called western democracies were actually a) paying attention and understood enough of what's at stake to apply pressure to their leaders. As long as war is a practically bloodless high tech video game, for that's how it's presented to the public, it creates little pressure for other solutions. It's just something happening way over on the other side of the world, to our brave lads and lasses, against (insert pejorative here), for (insert noble cause which, curiously, makes the Super-Rich even richer) and apparently occurs in a vacuum, to boot. Such attitudes have turned Iraq into a radioactive wasteland killing and maiming EVERYONE there, albeit slowly. Had the war gone on in Kosovo, the same would've been true. Fortunately, that one was small enough and ended quickly enough that the DU contamination was localized and remediable once the shooting stopped. This is just one consequence of what could fairly be described as species insanity. Crops grow where Carthage stood, but Iraq, Afghanistan and any other place where we wage unacknowledged radiological warfare will suffer death and torment for ages. And dust is mobile. We get some blown all the way from China!

Apropos of the above, you might find this of interest. Haven't broken down the numbers myself, and it's not the best written from a technical perspective,but even if they're off considerably, they give the lie to the official pronouncements on losses from the Gulf Wars.

http://www.libertyforlife.com/military-war/worlds-worst-ecological-disaster.htm

See also www.gulfwarvets.com and Kaku, METAL OF DISHONOR.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Elmar Bijlsma]

*sigh*

John, DU is about as radioactive as a Chinese toy. It's considered pretty poisonous though. Again, like a Chinese toy. I believe it is indeed chiefly responsible for the ill health affecting the soldiers and civilians that were near DU use. But radiation is not what did the dirty deed.

Have you read your own 1st link? It's written in complete ignorance of DU or is scandalously deceitful. Seriously, what's up with your bullsh!t filter?

It turns out that if you machine nuclear waste into a bullet and fire it at a tank the uranium bursts into flame on impact, melting through the armor plate and blowing up the tank. A bit like a mini atomic bomb hitting the side of a tank. The military call these ‘kinetic projectiles’. Yes the same alpha radiation and radio active waste is blasted into the atmosphere from these DU rounds as Little Boy in Hiroshima.

And that's the part where the author calls them a bit like mini atomic bombs, later on he calls them that outright. And you surely must now that is bullsh!t.

If you ever get annoyed by the ignorance of the general populace, take this opportunity to strike a blow for knowledge and delete that link.

[Cpl Steiner]

Such attitudes have turned Iraq into a radioactive wasteland killing and maiming EVERYONE there, albeit slowly.

I have to agree with the previous poster; John's link is utter Bull! If you read the following Wikipedia article on DU you will discover that DU is actually used for radiation SHIELDING - such as for transporting radioactive materials or in radiography in hospitals. Now why would you use such stuff to shield against radiation if it was radioactive itself?

Correction: The article does say it emits "Alpha particles", but these are pretty low-level radioactive particles that won't even pass through a sheet of paper. OK, I guess if it gets inside your body it might have a small health risk, but as the article states, our own bones emit more powerful radiation. Whilst I agree that any sort of contaminant is not good, that article John linked to was just pure hysteria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium

Before anyone asks, no I don't have very extensive knowledge of DU, but I don't buy what John posted one little bit. It just sounds like propaganda to me.

[JonS]

This two-part article, originally in MIDDLE EAST QUARTERLY should prove a revelation to most of you ...

Yep. As much of a revelation as anything getting on for 10 years old can be.

[Secondbrooks]

How did US find out which vehicle was shot by it's own M1s during Gulf war? By using geigercounter (from what i've read)... What does that tell? That it ain't atleast 100% radioactive free, however i doupt that area around penetration would start glowing at dark.

From wiki i would read chapter: "Gulf War syndrome and soldier complaints"

It's not the first time i heard from this.

[Cpl Steiner]

Here's another DU link from the World Heath Organisation:

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/

This quote from it suggests even DU from exploded shells in conflict zones is low risk:

A recent United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) report giving field measurements taken around selected impact sites in Kosovo (Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) indicates that contamination by DU in the environment was localized to a few tens of metres around impact sites. Contamination by DU dusts of local vegetation and water supplies was found to be extremely low. Thus, the probability of significant exposure to local populations was considered to be very low.

[fireship4]

Bear in mind, with an issue as important to governments as DU, scientists can be paid off and studies commisioned to fit an agenda.

Thus we can't be sure of the effect DU really has on an environment, short of getting first hand accounts from soldiers and locals (who haven't been told what to say) and truly impartial sources.

[JonS]

Thus we can't be sure of the effect DU really has on an environment, short of getting first hand accounts from soldiers and locals (who haven't been told what to say) and truly impartial sources.

The plural of annecdote is not data.

[Secondbrooks]

And from same site and same document:

Small children could receive greater exposure to DU when playing in or near DU impact sites. Their typical hand-to-mouth activity could lead to high DU ingestion from contaminated soil. Necessary preventative measures should be taken.

Somehow i feel quite pissed off about this. It's not logical as there are greater threath to kids from dud ordinance etc (i find landmine ban to be idiotic!), but radioation is somekind ugly&hideous troll in the dark.

Btw. How did North America or Western Europe react into Tsernobyl's accident?

[JonS]

You do what the 'Depleted' in 'Depleted Uranium' means ... right?

[Splinty]

There is a mild risk of low-level contamination if the dust from a DU round is ingested or inhaled. This hysteria is the usual over reaction of the Western press to the word "radiation".

[Lethaface]

I believe to have read several articles about DU contamination. It's effects were underestimated quite vastly it seems. The radiation itself is low, but alpha particles wreak havoc when it gets into your system.

Compare it to other heavy metal comparticles in soil. In highly industrial polluted regions the soil contains larger volumes of those heavy metal particles then is good for flora and fauna. In modern countries these polluting facilities are often removed and the polluted soil is sealed off. Uranium is a heavy metal only it is much more toxic then for example, lead.

In every place where was fought (extensively) with DU, DU particles are present in the soil at higher volumes then is good for flora and fauna. It will get in crops, in drinking water, etc etc etc. It is a fact that DU is toxic and can have sever effects to a men's liver in small quantities, from higher quantities other organs are affected and the chance of getting cancer increases. Because I dont recall the thrustworthy internet sources on this subject, I will leave the conclusion to everyone itself. Given the facts that DU particles are posionous especially when inside a body, how bad will the effects be in Iraq? (How much DU particles can be found in soil in Iraq ?)

Im a bit sad to sea that even in this community with a lot of proclaimed knowledge about warfare, it's direct aftermath is severely neglected. While it might not be 100% sure exactly what the DU pollition does to the locals now, thats only because the research isn't done yet. The results might prove good (better then expected), it might prove bad (worse then expected). The expected value however is that it is not good having DU particles around in your soil, from which you eat your veggies, your cows eat their grass, you drink your milk and eat the cow, and so forth. So I'm quite stunned by people here who, when confronted with the DU aftermath, are roughly giving the following reply:

"DU? It's not like a nuclear fallout orsomething, it is DEPLETED remember????!!!!" (as in that Depleted Uranium is harmless).

Anyone agreeing to that I dare to come proof.

@Elmar Bijlsma;

If i'm correct I recall a few years ago a special in the monthly magazine of the NRC (one of the better Dutch newspapers). It featured an in depth story about the aftermath of the 2nd gulf war and the lives of Iraqis in that aftermath. The DU subject was, well, strongly present.

Oh and JonS, depleted could indicate there is not 'working component' / radiation left in DU. Perhaps they chose the wrong term for this kind of material. Perhaps you could do a little lookup of the industrial process which leads to Depleted Uranium and 'Enhanced' uranium.

Perhaps it isnt that depleted is you might think, I come to believe that that might be the reason it is used in ANTI-TANK ordnances.

[Redwolf]

DU is still reasonably radioactive. Running around with a simple ebayed Geiger counter journalists could find DU hits on Iraqi tanks easily.

(to the dismay of U.S Army soldiers who were tasked with clearing the wrecks and were told DU isn't radioactive)

[John Kettler]

I fully understand what "weakly radioactive means," and I grant DU doesn't have much energetic reach, but it doesn't have to. Here's why. Even if it's only an alpha emitter, DU poses a major hazard from ingestion, whether by inhalation or consumption. Contrary to the standard dosage models, which are based on averaging over the whole body, it has been discovered that a more correct model in the case of radioactive particles in tobacco and DU particles is one based on dose to the cells in contact with the emitter, and those numbers are through the roof compared to the whole body model. We're also talking chronic exposure over periods of years.

Further, the body tends to concentrate radioactivity in certain sites, such as the lungs, kidneys and pancreas. My mother, who smoked heavily all her adult life, died of pancreatic cancer which metastasized. Did you know that scientists have been able to passively image the lungs of heavy smokers by simply placing them over unexposed X-Ray film and letting the radiation distribution unmask itself on the film?

DU can get into the body by driving unprotected through a zone where it's been used and breathing, by eating food in such an environment, by eating crops raised in contaminated soil, etc. The way tobacco has become radioactively contaminated is because the apatite fertilizer has some radioactivity in it, and the fields have been fertilized with it ever since WW II brought a switch from the traditional manure to apatite, the manure being needed as a niter source in making explosives. As it happens, apatite is like growth hormone for tobacco plants, giving tremendous crop yields, and is cheaper than manure. The tobacco companies have known about the radiation problem since the 1960s and have done nothing to stop it. The radon and related warnings we see now were forced upon them.

Let's pretend that we're not talking about DU, but classical atomic fallout. Are you supposed to drink fallout exposed water or beverages, eat fallout contaminated food, breathe fallout contaminated air without at least a mask? Answer's obvious! Are you supposed to expose unprotected skin to direct fallout contact? Of course not! Then why would it be even semirational to posit that not only doing those things but having it stay inside the body, in direct contact with living cells, wouldn't cause a whole series of problems. If you research veterans with DU exposure, and the government didn't even bother to test until recently, you find their bodies are falling apart. Nor do you just have to rely on the veterans because, you see, there is epidemiological data for workers who handled DU mass balancers used in aircraft production, and they have had disproportionately high cancer rates themselves. Holy etiology, Batman!

Am way too tired right now to get into my usual link fest, but will be happy to do so when next I rise, it already being 6 a.m. here.

Regards,

John Kettler

[JonS]

So I'm quite stunned by people here who, when confronted with the DU aftermath, are roughly giving the following reply:

"DU? It's not like a nuclear fallout orsomething, it is DEPLETED remember????!!!!" (as in that Depleted Uranium is harmless).

Anyone agreeing to that I dare to come proof.

...

Oh and JonS, depleted could indicate there is not 'working component' / radiation left in DU. Perhaps they chose the wrong term for this kind of material. Perhaps you could do a little lookup of the industrial process which leads to Depleted Uranium and 'Enhanced' uranium.

Nice try nimrod. My comment was only in response to the brianiacs banging on about how radioactive it must be.

U is a heavy metal. Heavy metals are bad for you, m'kay? But DU isn't bad for you because it's radioactive.

Don't forget to take your strawman with you, and don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

Oh, and go Jimmy Page ...

[Secondbrooks]

You do what the 'Depleted' in 'Depleted Uranium' means ... right?

Why do you think geigercounter was used to indentify blue-on-blue incidents related destporyed/damaged M3 Bradley and M1 Abrams? Because Geigercounter tells good stories... or becase it tells you that there is radiation around penetration (which indicates that it was DU penetrator shot from M1).

So there is some amount of radiation but not much, like there is not much radiation in non-depleted uranium either. Toxical problems are far more problematic. Are they how problematic... i quess time will tell.

EDIT: Oh yeah. Before you start to reply just check what i did write. I didnt' say that tank which got hit is qoing to glow in the dark. But i was just making note that it is radioactive.

[Lethaface]

JonS, while I dont understand your use of the word 'Nimrod' (hunter?) or Jimmy page, I perhaps was a little vigilante on you. However, it struck me that claims about the impact of use of DU rounds were served of rather ironically by your post (depleted?). That doens't show a lot of respect to the ones suffering by DU use post-effects.

While U is a toxic heavy metal, it is also low radioactive. This radio activity (alpha radiation) cant go through skin, but when DU particles infest your body, the prolonged exposure to this radiation does have certain effects apart from the sheer chemical toxicity.

Depleted uranium has a very long radioactive half-life of 4.5 billion years. In the event of internal contamination it can damage cells and tissues by it's prolonged presence in the body and by the intense radiation of alpha particles.

Each alpha particle of depleted uranium gives approximately 4.2 MeV (million electron volts). Only 6 to 10 eV (electron volts) are sufficient for DNA or other large molecules to break, which causes damage that may not be undone by cellular repair mechanisms.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3912/is_200202/ai_n9077795

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12121782?dopt=Abstract

And a lil story with some pictures, for the more visual focussed:

http://www.news-journalonline.com/special/uranium/

--

And Now GO get your ******* shinebox