AT4 underpowered?

[Combatintman]

Secondbrooks,

The world has changed since my story - I was quoting my experiences as a TA infantryman in 1984/85. Despite that training - as a Regular Soldier in Gulf War 1 I remember vividly being confronted by a company of T-72s which had engaged our air defence panzer. We naturally thought it was the enemy and then it was a mad scrabble (plus more swearing than you can imagine) to pull out the LAWs. I was quite thankful for the instructions at that point - despite having been trained on the thing as a TA soldier. We never got to use them because they were Egyptians so another blue on blue.

There is no two ways about it that the guys in a UK anti-tank platoon are going to be good because they get more practice but then they routinely use Javelin rather than the smaller weapons. I would wager that with operations in Afghanistan now, pretty much every bloke in a rifle section will be a ninja with the AT4 because they're firing them all the time (as you say practice makes perfect). Unlike the 1 round a year if the budget allows it thing that went on before it.

[Secondbrooks]

So number of AT4 to shoot is that high. Yeah, my experiences comes from peacetime only.

[Combatintman]

Secondbrooks - the guys are firing the rounds all the time. When I was there every TIC pretty much ended with - 'engaged with Javelin and mortars' TIC closed. With AT4 I'm sure its the same. As you will probably have seen - most buildings in rural Afghanistan are surrounded by a walled compound. How to get in ... fire an AT4 at it! In peacetime you were lucky if you got one round a year on either AT4 equivalent or Javelin equivalent. Now I'd be fairly sure that most blokes in a rifle section have fired AT4 at least a couple of times a month.

[Battlefront.com]

Correct... the AT4 and RPG-18 are just run of the mill weapons for the squad. Like the WWII Panzerfaust they are designed to be fired by just about anybody in just about any circumstance. Like any weapon, though, the person who has fired (or trained on) a weapon a lot is probably (but not certainly) better than someone who has fired none or few and/or has no training. The difference is that some weapons have a wide range of results due to proficiency, others have much narrower.

Think about it this way... a stunt car driver can do some pretty damned amazing things with an ordinary car because of his fantastic training and experience. But does that mean he's any better at driving around town to get some groceries and a 6 pack of beer (or 4 pack, depending on your nationality )? The answer is probably not. That's because the car is designed to be functional for most people most of the time. Therefore, if you ask 10 drivers to get to the store safely, probably all 10 will with little difference between the 16 year old and the grizzled Hollywood veteran stunt car driver. It's only in extreme situations, like on ice or when something very unexpected happens, that vastly better skills will make a difference. Otherwise it's the usual range of luck and basic life abilities of the person driving (eyesight, calmness under pressure, etc.).

The AT4 and RPG-18 are very much like the car in that they are not specialty weapons. Compare this to a manually guided ATGM and you'll see what I mean. The chances of Joe Average soldier guiding an AT-3 onto target is almost ZERO since even a trained crew has about a 25% chance of hitting. Likewise, I doubt a random soldier trying to use a TOW-2 would have much luck compared to a trained TOW gunner. This is where that AT Specialty comes into play in CM.

The Javelin is unique in that it has all the power of the best crew maned ATGMs but is designed to be not much harder to use than a Nintendo Game Boy. In theory anybody with some basic understanding of how to use it can hit targets. I've seen actual AARs in Iraq that show this to be true. Partly because during downtime soldiers fool around with each other's equipment (per doctrine or per boredom ) so when they do fire it isn't in complete ignorance. I know my time on a Javelin trainer showed that even basic instruction a few minutes before hand was enough to hit targets. So an experienced Javelin gunner should do better than someone who has no experience, but that doesn't mean someone with no experience will miss.

Steve

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[cool breeze]

Didn't horseback archers conquer most of Asia once?

[FAI]

Just wondering now, when in time would the technology of war been most dependent on "specialists" with a lot of training or rare talent? Or character traits?

You know, reading your post, I couldn't help but think of David Weber's Hell's Gate series. Sorry, carry on.

[Secondbrooks]

That's because the car is designed to be functional for most people most of the time. Therefore, if you ask 10 drivers to get to the store safely, probably all 10 will with little difference between the 16 year old and the grizzled Hollywood veteran stunt car driver. It's only in extreme situations, like on ice or when something very unexpected happens, that vastly better skills will make a difference. Otherwise it's the usual range of luck and basic life abilities of the person driving (eyesight, calmness under pressure, etc.).

The AT4 and RPG-18 are very much like the car in that they are not specialty weapons. Compare this to a manually guided ATGM and you'll see what I mean. The chances of Joe Average soldier guiding an AT-3 onto target is almost ZERO since even a trained crew has about a 25% chance of hitting. Likewise, I doubt a random soldier trying to use a TOW-2 would have much luck compared to a trained TOW gunner. This is where that AT Specialty comes into play in CM.

When thinking that CMSF happens in extreme conditions and there are quite many very extreme situations in battles, does your reply mean that specialty does have effect on AT4 and RPG-16 in CMSF? :confused:

How about other weapons found in regular squads? Are there any other than RPG-7 and RPG-29 ?

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Steve's reply means that specialty does not have much of, if any effect on the use of the AT4 and RPG-18, but it does on the use of ATGMs (except Javs). I don't know what his reply means about RPG-7s or -29s, though.

[Secondbrooks]

Steve's reply means that specialty does not have much of, if any effect on the use of the AT4 and RPG-18, but it does on the use of ATGMs (except Javs). I don't know what his reply means about RPG-7s or -29s, though.

Well i read it differently. The parts i bolded in my quote in previous post should support my case... Atleast i think so... However: i'm idiot.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I'm siding with FMB on this one.

[Secondbrooks]

I'm siding with FMB on this one.

:confused:

However: i'm idiot.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Secondbrooks, you're not an idiot. What Steve is saying is that only under very unusual situations do AT experts have an advantage with those weapons. So if there's a very, very difficult shot, then (maybe) an AT expert would be better, but under most circumstances an average soldier isn't going to be much worse.

Now I realize that battles are, for most people, an extreme situation, and there will be situations in battle that are extreme even by battle standards. But what Steve meant in this case is extreme relative to what the device is intended to be used for. So for a car, then driving to the supermarket is not extreme. Firing an AT-4 in the middle of a raging firefight is in fact not an extreme situation, because that's how the AT-4 is intended to be used. It's only when the shot that needs to be made is ridiculously difficult that the situation becomes extreme. Does this make sense?

-FMB

[c3k]

Why is Steve going to fire an AT-4 at his supermarket? Is it because of the ice?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Nevermind!

[Secondbrooks]

Firing an AT-4 in the middle of a raging firefight is in fact not an extreme situation, because that's how the AT-4 is intended to be used. It's only when the shot that needs to be made is ridiculously difficult that the situation becomes extreme. Does this make sense?

-FMB

That is pretty much what i'm after.

[MikeyD]

In the game the AT4 does a very good job of hitting the side of a building. That's mostly what the weapon is intended for these days. If all that stands between your men and an oncoming T90 is a few throwaway AT4s and LAWs that means something's already gone badly wrong in the battle.