What would you expect from this ambush?

[SirReal]

Originally posted by rune:

I never said they didn't have any HEAT, I asked Elvis to check since the screenshot you have doesn't show any. Matter of fact, rereading what I posted I CLEARLY ask Elvis to check the other tanks. Remember, I said I am not at home and don't have access to the scenario.

Date of the battle still makes a difference. Should be in the briefing.

Memory may be bad, will have to look up penetration value of the first generation of the HEAT round.

Rune

Originally posted by rune:

Elvis, and Dude,

Look at the saved game file when you get it. The tank he has the screenshot on has ZERO Heat round and 21 APC rounds as indicated to the shell to the right of the gun.

None of the tanks had zero HEAT rounds.

[SirReal]

Originally posted by Normal Dude:

I think it isn't so much an issue of penetration values as it that the gunners are way too damn slow getting rounds off.

Yeah, but my feeling is that even when they do fire and hit, the effects are less than impressive. They do seem to want to use the HEAT rounds against the T34's, though, which is a plus to the AI.

...On another track, to what skill would a german gunner during Barbarossa in '41 be trained, on a scale of 1-100? For reference, the game considers a stock SS elite gunner to have a skill of 80 (that's what they get if I just auto-add that an SS elite crew in the editor), while a gunner that survives three or four engagements during the campaign should easily reach 100.

[rune]

Dude,

Thanks for the followup. So it is NOT the penetration model, but what is chambered and what is happening in the background. Both you and Elvis report the same thing. A key thing here is the rounds shatter...which means it was NOT a heat round fired.

However, depending on the date of the scenario, the ammo could be off. The germans actually have too good of a round.

Oh, and apologies, I was 1mm off on the first generation shell. It should be 45mm, not 44mm. This according to JENTZ, Thomas L., DOYLE, Hilary Louis & SARSON, Peter. New Vanguard 19 - Stug III assault gun - 1940-1942. Oxford : Osprey Publishing, 1996. I blame not having my books handy and trying to go off of memory. I have not idea why I remembered it that close. Guess too many years of researching for the CMX1 games.

The A version of the shell should be 70mm and the B version should be 75mm.

Sir Real, you may have found something else with the load times however. I'll see if Matt can have the guys at 1C look into this. It may be crew experience, but let's be sure.

Rune

[Task]

Originally posted by SoaN:

At that period of war T34 were pretty “strong” tanks. IVC and III were starting to lose there force because of construction lacks. Also 34 had rather thick armor; hitting T34 became rather hard mission - thanks to the armor angle. Nazi ammo and guns hadn’t much power to penetrate T34 effectively.

Also you didn’t place your tanks tactically correct.

"Nazi" ammo and guns eh?

Anyways. Even in CM, you can destroy T-34's with short barreled PanzerIV's, at least if their side armor is presented to you.

[ChrisND]

Hey Rune,

The occasional unwillingness of tank crews to fire in life-death situations is something I've noticed from time to time. Often the tank keeps maneuvering for that "perfect shot" even though at that point getting a round off is all that matters. This save file actually demonstrates that pretty well.

On another note

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't AP rounds at a very high chance of shattering at these ranges? Anyhoo, I had no probs making kills with the HEAT, it was definetly the super-slow reactions that are unnatural. SirReal, I think you need to implement stricter drinking controls among your men. They are obviously hung over.

[stic.man]

Results:

5 dead panzers - 2 BT-7's

3 dead panzers (1 KO by infantry)- all russians eliminated

4 dead panzers (2 KO by infantry) - all russians eliminated

1 dead panzer (1 tracked and 1 KO by infantry) - all russians eliminated

Here are some screenshots (for fun!)

they sure can take a bunch of hits, though maybe there aren't very many important things (read: explosive) in the rear area?

i also noticed that there seems to be a minimum distance of engagement for the tanks - this T-34 was disabled but still not KO'd - positioned a PIVc for the Coup de grâce - however he would not fire. Range in the first pic indicates 2m on the map display (note the "Don't have clear line of fire message on the bottom left):

so he retreated a bit (range now 13m):

yay!

[ May 03, 2007, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: stic.man ]

[BFCElvis]

stic.man, It is a fun file isn't it?

[Dennis50]

Guys, I have a question ..I ask this in another thread some time ago but have since then lost track of the thread but don't think I ever got an answer ...Does the enemy AI always start a battle with expert everything (gunner, scout ability, commanders etc.)? And the human starting with much less (abilities)? If this is so ..shouldn't the AI expertise be a random sort of thing ? Imagine taking out most of enemy tanks, only to come up against one ace who gives you all kinds of hell.? Don't know if I'm making myself clear here. Anyway ..i'm just curious if the enemy always starts a battle with expert abilities? Anyone Know ? (1C & BTS)?

Regards,

Gunz

[BFCElvis]

The enemy does not always begin with expert abilities. (How's that for a straight answer?)

[SirReal]

Originally posted by Normal Dude:

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't AP rounds at a very high chance of shattering at these ranges? Anyhoo, I had no probs making kills with the HEAT, it was definetly the super-slow reactions that are unnatural. SirReal, I think you need to implement stricter drinking controls among your men. They are obviously hung over.

Impossible. I've checked the entire stock of schnapps bottles, and they're all empty. There's no way they could have gotten hold of alcohol. Oh wait...

During my plays, I have not ensured they load HEAT, I'll try forcing them to do that and see if I get better results.

[rune]

Hmmm.. but Sir Real's findings bring up a question I don't know the answer to. I know shatter gap was to AP rounds... but can a heat round shatter? I'll follow up to some people I know, but does anyone here know?

Rune

[Dennis50]

Originally posted by Elvis:

The enemy does not always begin with expert abilities. (How's that for a straight answer?)

Loud and clear ! Thanks.

Regards,

Gunz

[SirReal]

Originally posted by rune:

Hmmm.. but Sir Real's findings bring up a question I don't know the answer to. I know shatter gap was to AP rounds... but can a heat round shatter? I'll follow up to some people I know, but does anyone here know?

Rune

I would guess that the trigger rod would ignite the charge rather than snapping off?

In other news, I ran it with Absolute Micromanagement now (my personal replacement for the Actual Idiots routines), forcing the tanks to select HEAT rounds, target only visible parts of the enemy tanks, don't move an inch, and press the little red button.

Result, all soviet tanks dead, one Pz lost to russian infantry (at 25m!... damn those russians throw a mean satchel charge!).

[rune]

I would tend to agree with you, the HEAT round general is lower velocity then the AP shot, I can see the rod breaking or the shot being deflected, but shattering? I would think not, but by no means do I know as much as some here. I will defer to the experts once I get home.

Rune

[wokelly]

Turret is where you want to aim. Have your Tanks target the turret with ALT 1 and those 75mm's have a better chance.

[Thomm]

I just won the demo battle for the first time.

In the end, a T34/85 fired point-blank into the flank of my immobilized Jagdpanther. A few times, actually. But he did not kill him! Appeared pretty unusual to me.

Fortunately, the T34 was so busy that I could run up a Panzerschreck and kill him.

Before, I tried to do the same from the front with a Wurfmine(?) guy, but the poor sod got mowed down by the bow MG!

I love all those details!

Best regards,

Thomm

[HardRock]

LOL. Ok I want in on the fun too. Hey Sir Real..send it to me please. mars804@comcast.net

[SlapHappy]

SirReal

If you have the game saved prior to the point where this incident occured, you might try replaying it again from that point to see if perhaps you just had bad luck the first go round with penetrations.

Or are you already doing that and getting the same result over and over?

I agree that asuch a minimal range even the "75 stubby" should be able to at least get a spalling effect that would injure or kill crew members. (If that is modeled in the game, of course).

[SlapHappy]

Never mind, missed a full 2 pages of the continuation of this thread.

[rune]

Ok Heard back from John. A Heat round would not shatter. If the fuze failed, or the shell hit at an extreme angle, the thin wall of the shell would crush, but shatter is a specific definition which would not occur.

Rune

[Tontoman]

Originally posted by rune:

I would tend to agree with you, the HEAT round general is lower velocity then the AP shot, I can see the rod breaking or the shot being deflected, but shattering? I would think not, but by no means do I know as much as some here. I will defer to the experts once I get home.

Rune

Cool discussion.

The only way I can see a HEAT round being less effective due to range is the angle to the armor.

At short range it's going to be a flat trajectory and maybe more chance of deflection or the charge not being so effect due to the angle.

At longer range with the arc of the shot you actually get a better angle on sloped armor and the reduction in velocity (due to the range) is not a problem as it would be with an AP shot.

T.

[HardRock]

Ok I tried the save game..once..and once was enough. Utterly defeated. Of course this game *is* hard.

Most of the PZ IVs were trapped within bldgs and facing the bldgs. So where's the ambush.

Also a russian inf went thru town first..I'm sure he got a look at me:)

5 dead. 1 Russian dead.

[BFCElvis]

Hardrock, put your skirt back on and get out there and try it again.(hee hee)

[SirReal]

Originally posted by HardRock:

Ok I tried the save game..once..and once was enough. Utterly defeated. Of course this game *is* hard.

Most of the PZ IVs were trapped within bldgs and facing the bldgs. So where's the ambush.

Also a russian inf went thru town first..I'm sure he got a look at me:)

5 dead. 1 Russian dead.

Yeah, you need to micromanage a bit. The AI (Actual Idiots) believes that the best course of action is to aim straight into the building wall, so you'll have to order the tanks to target the enemy.

[Rak]

I wouldn't call that an ambush. It's like saying "Hey, I massed these poor tanks in this little town! Encircle and destroy them!"

What would you expect?

Annihilation.