Col Deadmarsh Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 In almost every screenie I've seen, there is hardly any C & C at all. Maybe a wall here or a building there but nothing like CM. Not even any dense forests. In addition to this, every map looks like gentle, rolling hills with no defilade positions to take hold of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColumbusOHGamer Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh: In almost every screenie I've seen, there is hardly any C & C at all. Maybe a wall here or a building there but nothing like CM. Not even any dense forests. In addition to this, every map looks like gentle, rolling hills with no defilade positions to take hold of. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cincinatvs Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Awaiting the Map editor (On the way) the Scenario/Campaign Editor allowes to cover a map with brushes and trees :~) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZaPPPa Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 I'm still wondering if cover and concealment is actually going to mean something. I have looked on the boards and haven't been able to find an answer. If hiding behind a bush is not going to have any effect on the LoS and hiding behind a wall is not going to help against rifle fire, all tactics are out the window and the game becomes meaningless. In Close Combat cover is everything and many hours are spent making the perfect battle plan, using the terrain as much as possible. Without C&C a battle plan would involve not much more than a frontal assault with maybe a flanking manouvre and everything else would be a simple rock-paper-scissors deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cincinatvs Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 There Hidding and Concealment provided by landscape: one exemple: http://www.battlefront-newsletter.com/Blogfront/tabid/55/BlogID/7/Default.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoolaman Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 There is certainly spotting and concealment in the game, although how well it works in the Russian version seems debatable. I have not really seen anything resembling actual cover. No gullies or ridges, no boulders, no fallen logs. There are of course trenches and bunkers hard-coded on the maps for all to see out in the middle of a rolling field. Other than this, the only real cover appears to be the walls/fences in towns, but town fighting looks to be a bit of a farce because you can't enter buildings. Seeing infantry hiding behind a flimsy looking bush as they assault a town is comical on the level of by Monty Python. A nice spray of machine gun fire should cut them to shreds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avwriter Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 When setting up mulitplayer games, I wonder if it is possible to restrict the availalble view points? This could solve the issue to a certian degree. For example, let's say that only the "first person" view was permitted in a given battle (perhaps one in which each player only commanded a single battalion so as to limit the need to switch around excessively), I dare say that concealment would be much more effective. In Il-2 this can certainly be done, and often is. For instance, players can be limited to only using the cockpit view if that is what the host wants to do. Obviously it makes the game quite a bit tougher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Bull Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 Originally posted by ZaPPPa: I'm still wondering if cover and concealment is actually going to mean something. I have looked on the boards and haven't been able to find an answer. I too asked about this some time ago but got no real answer. I do know that units do not occupy discrete terrain tiles like they did in CM. They seem to be ALWAYS in open terrain. As far as what you physically see on the battlefield like a brush here or a tree and tree trunk there, I am unsure if they are just cosmetic or whether they actually affect anything in the game. eg. Should I move my squad behind that brush I see on the map to get more concealment or is any spot just as good as any other? My current perception is that all the foliage graphics you see in the game is just cosmetic and it is effectively like fighting on a CM map with all the terrrain graphics but in reality no matter where the unit is positioned on the map, it is still always consderd to be in "open terrian". I am hoping to be corrected. Bull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webwing Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 In the videos you can see soldiers crawling, hiding in the tall grass. Is this just for show then? Can the enemy still see them? Hard to believe, in my opinion. Although soldiers cant get into houses I suppose they can hide behind them. If they can do that I assume they can do the same with trees and so on. I did a few maps/mods for the Close Combat series and used a tool to specify the LOS. Height and every object you putted there would affect LOS in the game. There must be a similar calculation in ToW, no doubt. Still the lack of an official response to this matter makes one wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flanker15 Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 Things like trees, bushes and grass have been stated and shown to have concealment effects. You can prone in grass or hide in bushes and the enemy will have a harder time spotting you(this aparently stacks as the LOS passes through more concealment) but they offer no cover if you are spotted. Solid objects like walls and buildings offer cover and concealment too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZaPPPa Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 If all this is true, then the game is still worth considering. However, like Webwing said, the lack of an official answer is not a good sign. I wouldn't mind some level of abstraction when it comes to concealment. If the engine cannot handle a huge amount of trees and foilage, the developers should have abstracted it instead of taking the easy way out and creating open maps. Theatre of War is geared towards the simulation aspect of warfare, not the CoH arcadish style (which is fun in its own right by the way). If anyone can handle a little abstraction, its hard-core simmers. Close combat is all about position and cover & concealment pretty much determines which side will have the upper hand. Take this out of the equation and limiting it because of PC specs and you change the game completely.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Bull Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 Originally posted by Flanker15: Things like trees, bushes and grass have been stated and shown to have concealment effects. You can prone in grass or hide in bushes and the enemy will have a harder time spotting you(this aparently stacks as the LOS passes through more concealment) but they offer no cover if you are spotted. Solid objects like walls and buildings offer cover and concealment too. I understood that solid objects like walls and buildings (or infantry being in a trench of course) would offer cover. However we can ignore buildings as "cover" for this discussion because any infantry unit behind a building trying to use it as cover would basically block the enemy LOS and LOF to it anyway. So is it then true to say that (except for trenches and walls) whenever ANY infantry unit is spotted by the enemy in ANY terrain, you may as well just forget about what terrain they appear to be in and just treat them as existing in open terrain for all incoming enemy fire? [ March 31, 2007, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: Lt Bull ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 Could be a dealbreaker for me but I want to try the demo first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatsby Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 I was just about to buy this game and then I came upon this thread...Definetly not going to buy it now...if this is true the demo will even be frustrating...maybe I will go over and take another look at Strategic command.. You can't have any realistic simulation of tactics without cover..so this essentially is the same as other RTS games except without the resource management I agree..deal breaker... Gatsby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 Gatsby, I should definitely try the demo if I were you. Because once you do you'll know what you are talking about. And that's more then can be said for most other people in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theBrit Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 I agree.... its all speculation atm. Wait for the DEMO then post. Too late for me, as I've pre-ordered regardless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatsby Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 okay that's all well and good.. and yes trying the demo would enable a more informed decision...but at this moment all we have is conjecture...and I have been waiting for somebody reasonably official to weigh in here..and I think the silence is indicative ...other threads I have looked at usually have someone who knows posting within a couple of days ..if not that day... I thought the people here might be interested that I actually had filled out the pre order form..saw this thread and stopped... gatsby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theBrit Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 Moon is pretty good at responding to threads...be patient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartan Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 You guys crack me up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltung Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 seems unlikely that they would leave out C&C issues in a game like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFCElvis Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 I have had many times where the concealed enemy has caught me off guard. Even replaying a certain scenario(beware "Avalanche") where I KNOW where the bads guys are before I start I still can't shake them out of concealment until it is too late for me. I will also say that my guys die MUCH more easily in the open then when they are in an area containing woods. They also die faster when upright instead of crouched and prone. So to answer both questions, cover and concealment are certainly modeled in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 *gah* Avalanche! AVALANCHE!!! *falls to the ground and twitches* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts