why do some hate rts games?

[graetwulff]

yes some of them are click fest.

but this one is slowly moving ahead in that area.

even tho it is taking a step back in the unit numbers. the more the units the better. that is based on playing a game that looked good and you could have up to over 40,000 soldiers. you could see them load thier guns and melee.

i think it will be a good game becuse of the realism.

i hate trun base war games it take out the thinking in the heat of battle. for the ones who can not think when the fight is hard you can pause the game.

[Jussi Köhler]

Right you are. Brilliant post.

Here, have a cookie.

[Andreas]

It beats hating your family in terms of ease and fulfillment.

All the best

Andreas

[Arkel]

You are right, some people here seem to think that RTS=bad no exceptions, and want everything to be like CM etc. turn-based and every detail.

But the truth is those games don't have a big market, I think BF and 1C games really want this to be a big public hit, and also want it appeal to the mainstream public instead of just the pure-diehards grogs. They want people with little experience and knowledge of WW2 games and facts to also buy this game, make it turn-based and you lose alot of customers, the mainstream public wants quick action and a low learningcurve.

This game has been in development so long that it really needs to collect good money in order to even result in a break-even of costs and sales.

So yes, some decisions will be made that are turn-off's for the diehard grogs, but the mainstream public won't even notice and doesn't care, they have little knowledge of what is realistic and what is not.

Look at games like the new Company of heroes, totally unrealistic, but alot of people like it, they don't care about 100% realistic damage models and ranges, they just want action and explosions.

But 1C don't want to follow that route, they want more, they are willing to go the extra mile and add more realism to the game, to also attract the real WW2 interested customers, but at the same time they will want to keep the game appealing to your average customers.

[J Ruddy]

why do some hate rts games?

Why do I hate *most* RTS games

- most are Click-Fests

- most are resource driven (create building x so that you can build building y and create unit z but you need 5000 iron and 1200 wood first, and don't forget the 3400 energy...) In a real time system I just want a tactical game!

- For many, the only aspect tying it back to the main theme is the graphics, not the physics, strategies employed etc...

The RTS games that I have enjoyed are not WWII. Praetorians was good and Dawn of War was another.

I consider the Blitzkrieg games (Like a fool I bought three at once based on on-line reviews) to be a total waste of money.

God I hope this one doesn't suck.

[Megakill]

This game is called RTS only because it is in real time. This is the only thing it has with Blitzkrieg.

The rest is more similar to CC series.

[ComradeP]

why do some hate rts games?

Why should one not hate RTS games?

I admit: I have a lot of RTS games, but they're really no challenge to win or anything (the singleplayer part, the multiplayer part is full of shortcut kiddies and is best left untouched) and I play them to have a "break" from more serious games (D&D-rules RPG's and wargaming).

Megakill, I was wondering whether the game should be advertised as "Real Time Wargame" although that would abbreviate to RTW, which would lead to obvious problems as there's a Rome: Total War.

[sebastian]

Originally posted by ComradeP:

Megakill, I was wondering whether the game should be advertised as "Real Time Wargame"

I saw the term Real Time Tactical (RTT) somewhere here.

[M Hofbauer]

you're all off target.

except Jussi; he made the only adequate reply to the original post.

[Moon]

I hate most RTS games because unlike the title would suggest they're actually action games and not strategy games. You're forced to click faster than your opponent while keeping in mind a few simple game rules. Most have a very low complexity masked (often barely) by instant-gratification-explosions and great graphics as well as heavily scripted missions/AI. I can only look at nice graphics for about 10 minutes, after that you see through the shallow surface, and most of these games are boring to me.

Martin

[Jussi Köhler]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

you're all off target.

except Jussi; he made the only adequate reply to the original post.

Thats because Im special. I event went to the school for "special" kids and all...

[ComradeP]

For a moment there, I read "I even went back to school for the *special* kids" which would not have been entirely out of place in this discussion.

[RMC]

Originally posted by Moon:

I hate most RTS games because unlike the title would suggest they're actually action games and not strategy games. You're forced to click faster than your opponent while keeping in mind a few simple game rules. Most have a very low complexity masked (often barely) by instant-gratification-explosions and great graphics as well as heavily scripted missions/AI.

Disagree completely. The standard RTS formula does involve gathering, researching and building and most of the time that is where the strategy is. The better ones have pretty good rock-paper-scissors relationships between the various kinds of units you can build so there is some tactical nuance to the combats.

But for most the strategy is in what research paths to take, whether to build a lot of weak units or a few powerful ones, how much of your resources do you allocate to trying to disrupt your opponents resource chain vice attacking his base and defending yours etc etc.

Click speed/manual dexterity does come into play in the multiplayer aspect because many of the players are like speed chess players. They have a couple of "opening book" strategies that they use and they have completely mastered the interface.

This last piece is what I really believe to the heart of the TB strategist/grog player. It is just offensive to their sensibilities that manual skill with a mouse and keyboard should have any influence over the outcome of the game at all. They want it to be a battle of wits, not wits and manual skill with the interface.

I am not a hardcore RTS player, but I have played a number of them over the years. The ones that stand out to me as well worth anyone's time are the ones from Relic: Homeworld and its progeny and Dawn of War.

[BCW]

Cause "MOST" RTS rot your brain faster than other wargames.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by ComradeP:

For a moment there, I read "I even went back to school for the *special* kids" which would not have been entirely out of place in this discussion.

are you, by any chance, in the SF ?

[ComradeP]

I'm not American (and personally, I'm glad that I'm not) so I'm not in those Special Forces.

By the way, I wonder whether Bush has called on more of those very special forces. Bush's IQ betrays that he might have been a very Special Force of his own, back in his youth.

[Jussi Köhler]

Originally posted by ComradeP:

By the way, I wonder whether Bush has called on more of those very special forces. Bush's IQ betrays that he might have been a very Special Force of his own, back in his youth.

No he wasnt. He doesnt have a shiny medal.

[Moon]

Disagree completely.

After reading your post I kind of fail to see why Especially since you agree that "dexterity" does play a role in most such games. I say "most" even though this has been the case in ALL RTS games I've played so far, but I don't want to exclude the possibility that there are some that I have not played that do things differently. Well, all except one which would be TOW. Here it doesn't matter how fast you click... you'll be blown to pieces if you don't actually use that pea brain. Look at what happened to Rune

Martin

[RMC]

You said they are not strategy games, but they are. It takes strategy to win at them. It's just that the strategy comes into play at different points than the combats between the units.

Also clicking faster does not in and of itself ensure victory. Bad clicks lead to bad results.

[graetwulff]

i did not want this to become a flame fest. i was just asking , trying to understand why.

i am hoping that tow comes close, i know they are limited. i hope one day they will make a game with all this stuff in them. and in the over all i think tow has moved closer than any other game. that i have found so far to what i want.

[WineCape]

RTS screws my mind and gives me vertigo, especially when the mind is full of vinum. Veritas!

[howardb]

I don't hate them RTS games, I just don't play them. Well I seldom do anyway.

[zmoney]

Originally posted by ComradeP:

I'm not American (and personally, I'm glad that I'm not)

Yea the Netherlands is way better. Why the lame jab?

By the way that SF pic is hilarious.

I think Blitzkrieg and Axis & Allies are prime examples of why not to like RTS's. But I do enjoy the total war series. Haven't played CC. I have been looking forward to this game for awhile though I expect it to be great.

[WindyCity]

Originally posted by graetwulff:

yes some of them are click fest.

LOL

We did not turn RTS into a four letter word, the developers did that all on their own

[Kellysheroes]

The biggest issue with rts games is there isn't much strategy to them as there is he who can click the fastest and jackoff the quickest. VS turn based there it is pure intelligence and strategy & tactics knowledge that will win the day. Commanders didn't play rts when they moved their little flags around on the big maps during WWII, although time was a factor, rts games move real time too fast. Now, if they want to give us second by second and minute by minute movement and action I'll be all for rts games. Until then they are just kiddie clickfest games and as someone stated above only really for the mainstream customers and will turn off the more grogier hard-core wargamer in a heartbeat (the majority of them anyway, some are traitors and benedict arnolds of course and play rts games as well).

Personally I've always felt if you're going to put PAUSE in an RTS game, you might just as well have made it turn based or wego in the first place. People are already arguing about whether pause should be allow in MP games. In turn based games you don't have that sort of arguing.

{quoted} I think BF and 1C games really want this to be a big public hit, and also want it appeal to the mainstream public instead of just the pure-diehards grogs.

By being a direct download only or thru snail mail this game isn't going to come close to being exposed to the "mainstream public" who buy their games in brick n mortar stores or thru direct 2 drive. If BF want the mainstream to see and buy this game they better think about going retail or making some kind of a deal with Direct 2 Drive.

[ August 09, 2006, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: Kellysheroes ]