chance of hit % - really missing this

[scottie]

chance of hit % - really missing this

dont know if im wasting ammo.

couple of unit disapeared ... icon still availble above them but no green/red base

[MikeyD]

For tank guns at least, even an old static T54b should have close to 90-100% hit probability on most game-size maps. That's the march of progress for you. Same holds for 25 and 30mm autocannons.

The stuff that hit percentage would come in handy for is mostly fired by the AI anyway: U.S. AT4 LAW, Syrian ATGMs AT-4, AT-3, etc. But variables kick-in with these bigtime. Cross winds, soldier experience, intervening dust/smoke. The inherant hit probability of the weapon is the least of it!

So all that leaves for hit probability is the BMP-1's 73mm gun/SPG-9 RCCL gun.

[Renaud]

For tank guns at least, even an old static T54b should have close to 90-100% hit probability on most game-size maps. That's the march of progress for you. Same holds for 25 and 30mm autocannons.

I agree with you if the troops are not conscripts, not panicked or otherwise pressured, using high velocity cannons at ranges under 500-800 meters (depending on the cannon), vs a stationary target, while the shooter is stationary with unobstructed line of sight or a good thermal image. That's a lot of "if's"...

Remember that most of the older systems and some of the newer ones (including the Bradley 25mm) do not have laser rangefinders, stabilization or ballistic computers. At ranges well within the max map size of CMx2, these guns must be manually adjusted for elevation. My guess is this starts at around 500 meters for a 115mm gun. In the case of 25mm on the bradley, the first shots are 'ranging shots' which often miss. Once the gunner has the range and observes steel-on-steel, he can hit pretty accurately unless the target moves around, behind something, etc. See numerous bradley gun cam footage for examples. There is essentially no difference between the skill needed to use these weapons and that needed to accurately fire high velocity ww2-era weapons like the 3", 75L70, 88L56/71, etc. Even guns with modern gadgets miss more often than not in the hands of poorly trained or panicky troops (See GW1 examples). Other factors: damage to stabilization, ballistic computer, laser rangefinder, MRS, cross wind sensor and a host of other gadgets.

In the case of the M1, loss of the rangefinder or computer requires you to fall back on the Gunners Auxilary Sight, which is a VERY basic sight and inferior to most late-ww2 optical tank gun sights. Your chance to hit really goes down the toilet in this case unless the target is within 600m or so and you can just put the deathdot right on top of the enemy vehicle.

First round hits at 2500+ meters are quite difficult even with the best systems. Skill and visibility play a large part in determining the chance of first round hit beyond these ranges.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by Renaud:

A Bradley uses all of those

You will not find targeting computers on T-54s and some of the older T-55s

Some of the older T-62s do not have laser rangefinders but are stabalized

The BMP-1s 73mm cannon is not stabalized, does not have a rangefinder nor does it have a targeting computer.

But in every case the optics are better quality than even late war German WW2 tanks and the tank guns themselves have a higher velocity and are more accurate.

On the modern battlefield if you can see it, you can kill it.

[tc237]

The "Chance to hit %" seems really gamey.

Don't know of any real world method used to calculate a "chance to hit" during an engagement.

(not talking about a static firing test)

As MikeyD and Renuad state, there are hundreds of varibles that can affect a tank crews shot.

How would the crew know that they have, for example, an 80% chance to hit a target?

[Bradley Dick]

I gotta second that remark above. Bradleys do have laser range finders and stabalizers. In addition, Table 8 for Gunnery involves shooting at moving targets... even at oblique angles.

There is no "Bradley gun cam". And, if you see shots not all hitting in the same place.... it's because it's a Bushmaster 25mm automatic chain gun. It fires on full auto. Anything other than single shot has some spread to it. And the reason it's so hard to engage past 2500 meters is because of tracer burn out. The tracer stops burning after a while, it's not magic.

Please don't go talking out of your ass.

[Darren J Pierson]

I assumed that the chance to hit % reflected the judgment of the soldiers operating the weapon. As a player I don't know how likely a shot would be to hit but I'm assuming the gunner/crew has an idea. Not, perhaps, 83%, but certainly great, good, probably, maybe, hmmm, are you kidding me?

[Battlefront.com]

We do want to put in some CMx1 style "chance to hit" and "chance to damage". It won't be more than a general guideline, as it was in CMx1, but better than nothing. I hope we can get this in soon.

Steve

[scottie]

Originally posted by tc237:

The "Chance to hit %" seems really gamey.

aye but in real life you can work it out using real world parameters. in the the game you cannot see from the sights of each soldier and even if you could the landscape draw lines will never be perfect. The chance of hit % is just an extralpilation of the equation a solider makes when deciding wheather to take a shot or not. If anything it make it more realistic IMO. Cheers Scott

[scottie]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

We do want to put in some CMx1 style "chance to hit" and "chance to damage". It won't be more than a general guideline, as it was in CMx1, but better than nothing. I hope we can get this in soon.

Steve

great news, thanks for the update.

[John Kettler]

Renaud,

The T-62's 115mm smoothbore gun was the first of the modern hypervelocity tank guns. Indeed, it was revolutionary when it appeared. MV was ~ 1600m/sec when using HVAPFSDS. This meant that the gun shot (and to this day shoots) much flatter than the vaunted 88 of WW II notoriety. ISTR that it could be fired effectively in battlesight mode (bore parallel to the ground) out to 1000 meters, with an excellent chance of a hit vs. a tank sized target. Targets beyond that range were engaged by platoon or even company volley fire, this to offset decreased accuracy as the projectile started to slow down and began to weathercock.

Regards,

John Kettler

[flamingknives]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

Renaud,

The T-62's 115mm smoothbore gun was the first of the modern hypervelocity tank guns. Indeed, it was revolutionary when it appeared. MV was ~ 1600m/sec when using HVAPFSDS. This meant that the gun shot (and to this day shoots) much flatter than the vaunted 88 of WW II notoriety. ISTR that it could be fired effectively in battlesight mode (bore parallel to the ground) out to 1000 meters, with an excellent chance of a hit vs. a tank sized target. Targets beyond that range were engaged by platoon or even company volley fire, this to offset decreased accuracy as the projectile started to slow down and began to weathercock.

Regards,

John Kettler

John, I believe that the technical term is "point blank"

[Renaud]

bradleydick,

Did they add that to the bradly after 91? That's the last time I was around them. Do they have a ballistic computer linked to the laser rangefinder now? Wow! Many of the older Syrian tanks have laser rangfinders, but no ballistic computer to calculate a firing solution, adjust for elevation and lead...that's still done inside the gunners head.

The 'guncam' footage from 25mm bradley is common on the web, not sure how they get it though. I'm aware there is no integrated gun cam..lol. The videos I have seen are taken through the TIS somehow. About 20 HE fired in one example to kill 1 bad guy planting a roadside bomb.

fyi, my experience comes from 3 years with the 3rd ACR, but I might be getting a little dated as this was all cold war and GW1 era. So they have you guys firing at moving targets these days? (joke)

I'm still of the opinion that we over-rate first shot accuracy in wartime conditions because we are jaded by perfect conditions found on a range, all systems operational and perfectly calibrated, nicely visible hot target panels, perfect weather, etc. I do think 95%-99% is correct for a complete, undegraded system set up by a skilled technician, firing at a stationary vehicle from a stationary location in good visibility. By 'complete system' I mean laser rangefinder linked to a ballistic computer, correctly boresighted, with TIS if a night shoot.

[Bradley Dick]

I apologize for busting your balls, Renaud. The equipment has definitely changed since 91, as I'm sure it will be radically different in 2017.

I just spend a year and eight months with 3rd ACR myself, still have my spurs and stetson, still live near the "Mountain Post".

The Army has what it calls "ODS (operation desert storm)" Bradleys. Nearly all the Bradleys in the Army have these upgrades. They include a laser range finder integrated into the ISU. You just set it to first return or last return and it works by way of a thumb switch on the action handle. The range displays where the ammo count is, and the barrel automatically adjusts. Now, the automatic lead you can do with the M1's may not be on a Bradley. I've never been on the brand spanking new ones(the models where the commander has his own ISU). I would assume that they have them, but I would be talking out of my ass.

Alot of the videos I've seen that claimed to be from the BFV were actually from other weapons systems(the Apache being one I can think of specifically). But if you do have some links to some BFV videos, I'd love to see them. The thermals being red like they were, I could never get a decent picture of anything out of them.

Again, I'm sorry for suggesting you didn't know what you were talking about.

[Renaud]

No sweat. Sounds like they've really bumped up the tech on the Bradleys.

Can't find the one i'm thinking of that was actual combat, but there's a bunch of 25mm shoots on YouTube. Search for "Bradley 25mm". You have to register because it's 'adult content' according to YouTube lawyers.

After that I got distracted by Miss Reef 2007 bikini cmpetition videos...

[Battlefront.com]

The A3 model is the one CM:SF simulates and it is indeed VERY different from the previous revs when it relates to the gunnary aspects. The A3 data is practically absent on the web, which was very frustrating to us as we went about simulating the A3.

The A3's gun is fully stabilized, there is a laser range finder, a new targeting computer, and has 2nd Gen FLIR for peeping in the dark. All of these things are tied together, meaning the gunner looks through a thermal image and gets range info via the laser and the gunnery computer automatically messes about to adjust for range even when on the move. The BFIST has upgrades as well to make it roughly equivalent to those vehicles which have FS3 systems.

Steve

[Bradley Dick]

The updated FLIR is also, if anyone cares, the Green thermals on the web that Renaud mentioned earlier.

I personally dug the red thermals. Nothing like staring at red for an 8 hour night patrol to affect your psyche in a beneficial manner for the Army.