Group Think - What the hell were you thinking?

[RabidRabbit]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Hey, I hate NASCAR - I think its a boring sport. Maybe I'll go find a NASCAR chat group and NEVER STOP POSTING MY OPINIONS ON IT!

That would be a good analogy if you had to purchase the NASCAR programing to watch the races and then found out it didn't work on a certain brand of T.V.

I'm still miffed over the Nvidia 8800 video card bug. How many brands of video cards are there? ATI and Nvidia? Not including a larger population of beta testers with a wider range of video hardware is hard to imagine.

It seems fitting that the distributor is Paradox. The paradox for me is that you need a good rig to run the game. However, having an 8800 card makes it run worse.

[dan/california]

From the Total War forum

I could cry? I have Kingdoms installed now, with the 1.3 patch. What have you lot been doing on the path finding and AI issues? They are still %@%@ poor. How can you go from quality path finding on Rome Total War to %@%@ poor path finding on MedEvi 2? Units are still getting stuck up against walls and constantly just running at them. The AI smashed a hole in either side of my wooded gated walls. Then proceeded to send all it's troops in a column formation round the side of the outside of my town for no reason. While there it's front line troops were slaughtered and stood there and took the pain. Then it brought it's ram up to smash the gate. why? Were the holes in the walls not enough, maybe not but then why send all your troops round the side of the outside of the town where they can get hit, why not keep them back? Once the ram had done it's job then all the AI troops came back round.

I'm still semi enjoying the game but the AI really is %@%@ poor and the path finding is laughable. It's shocking how bad it is considering you have Rome Total War that you could rob code from, considering the AI and path finding in Rome was miles better I really don't know why you didn't.

Never ever thought I'd say this, but I'm darn glad I never paid for Kingdoms (was given it as a present). The quality of this is making me question on whether I should buy any of the Total War series again. Pull your fingers out and sort out the AI and path finding or you'll gonna lose A LOT of customers.

I repeat, 3D 1 to 1 is hard. This from a truly large scale developer a YEAR after release, in which they have managed three whole patches.

This leads me to three conclusions.

1) Charles's programming abilities must be godlike for him to have done so much good work more or less by himself.

2) At least Battlefront is trying for gods sake, two patches and another one soon is quite good by industry standards. I am still quite happy I pre-ordered.

3) Charles needs to be in charge of a room filled with other nutrient jars. I understand the brains to put in the nutrient jars can be procured at reasonable rates in various former eastern block countries. Like the gentlemen who made the T72 game for instance.

[thelmia]

8800 users with no problems probably don't post. What proportion of them that have issues is unknown. I only came to the forum because of a crippling SLI bug, which I found the solution to.

Forum- goers are a small group of people. They are not very representative of the playerbase. Sometimes they are really nice to have, and sometimes they are people with no lives who like to complain.

If the beta group didn't have anyone with problems, then they couldn't have seen it coming. Since we don't know what proportion of 8800 users have issues there's no way to know how big a group they would need. Since the devs are obviously spending a lot of time on the 8800 bug I don't see what else there is to do. Complaining without contributing is only useful to point out unknown problems. They know about this one. So what's the point?

Oh yeah, the t72 game! I played the demo. How did that turn out?

[C'Rogers]

Interesting. Does anyone know how BFC ended up having to sign such a contract (where Paradox tells them when CMSF will be released and not vice versa)?

I imagine distributors of computer games, if they are like any kind of distributor, need time to set up things. It isn't like you can tell them the game is done and have them expect them to send it out the door the next day. BFC signed the contract well in advance, they have even said they tried to get too much in by release date.

That said I really enjoyed the initial release version.

This idea sounds like the "did piracy kill CMx1" thread. An idea is presented, which might be potentially feasible, but otherwise there is zero evidence of its existence.

[wolf66]

Originally posted by Chelt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lt Belenko:

A while back in work I attended a seminar on "Group Think". Basically it was an analysis of the Challenger disaster. Somebody said "Let's go in the freezing weather" The entire group nodded in concurrence. A few thought the cold could affect the O-rings on the booster rockets, but to conform to the "Group Think" they didn't speak up.

The presenter in your seminar was, at best, passing on a counterfactual folk-history version of the Challenger disaster.

The booster engineers DID speak up; managers discarded the warnings because they deemed the risks acceptable.

This from an paper (by one of the lead engineers, published in Engineering Ethics journal) about the incident:

"NASA and all the other interested parties, including the managers at Morton Thiokol, knew there were problems. So when the engineers gathered together their charts to make their recommendation the night before the Challenger launch, they went into the room to remind everyone in the chain of command what everyone already knew."

And the engineers recommendation? They believed that NASA should hold the launch. That isn't exactly "keeping your mouth shut in order to conform to groupthink."

http://www.onlineethics.org/CMS/profpractice/exempindex/RB-intro/RepMisrep.aspx </font>

[wolf66]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

Lt.Belenko,

I understand your disappointment. I guess you, like most of us, hoped for something a bit more finished. However I must profess bafflement as to you still 'playing' v1.00, which shouldn't even be a release version! Why not play 1.03? You are now judging a product without technically ever having played the official release. That's an unreasonable position to take.

As a beta tester I must admit I am somewhat unappreciative of your comments regarding the beta testers. In part because your speculation is off the mark, but also because we testers are under a NDA. So what happens in beta stays in beta. It's kinda hurtful to see such speculation when we have our hands tied in such discussions.

Suffice to say we are neither blind, dimwitted nor so far up BFC's arse we can't see daylight.

I agree with Elmar.

To Lt Belenko, I say this:

There were LOTS of beta testers, they were ALL under NDA, a real legal document to prevent disclosure of private issues in a private process in the development cycle of the game. The NDA is still in effect, and posting here with their hands tied may be about all they can do to respond to your comments. :eek: </font>

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[Lt Belenko]

I'm not going to quote every comment above but I'll add this:

Comparing CMSF to the Challenger too extreme. Agree. Just a little shock and awe value. LOL

As for the Challenger group think, all parties agreed to launch in the end. One man could have stopped it.

Why am I still playing 1.00? I'm not. I'm not playing it at all. I'm waiting for 1.07 or 1.08 before I launch it again.

Re Elmar Bijlsma and the NDA. Reading betwix the lines it sounds like there must have been dissenters, who can't speak up. Attacking any single beta tester was not intended. Assuming the overall group thought it was ready - that's the judgemnet I was attacking.

Ok, it was a contract dead line that predicated the release in an unfinished state, not beta-tester concurrence it was "ready". Now I understand.

Why buy any game before playing the demo? Why do that for any game? This is the beloved BFC - of course I'll buy it. I even tossed in the extra $10 for the mouse pad and poster. The pad was extremely flimsly compared to the $2.99 I bought at Wally World. But I have learned a lesson.

The BFC lesson learned in beta testing should go something like this:

1. Have some testers look for obvious computer crashing bugs and operability bugs.

2. Then bring a fresh set of eyes that haven't seen all the crashing flaws and test exclusively for playability and enjoyment.

The men that saw the crashing version get fixed were then happy when it worked correctly and perhaps they overlooked the enjoyment factor, because it was finally running.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

Originally posted by Lt Belenko:

The men that saw the crashing version get fixed were then happy when it worked correctly and perhaps they overlooked the enjoyment factor, because it was finally running.

Enjoyment factor? I own all three of the CMx1 games, but played them very little. I find turn-based, computer games frightfully boring. That said, I didn't troll the forums dedicated to the games, either.

This thread is one of a half-dozen, or so, that have found themselves cemented to the top of the forum since CMSF was launched. The common theme throughout the series seems to be, "if only BF had listened (to me), this entire fiasco could have been avoided."

Well, I'm not experiencing the fiasco. I like the game just fine, thank you. The armor portion of it appears to work better than the infantry, but that was true of the discontinued series, as well. The interface has received a much-needed update, and the RT option has delivered me from those nasty old turns.

There does appear to be a problem for 8800xxx users in that the game needs to be set to "balanced" graphics settings to be playable, but BFD. I play RT and were I to spend a scant second or two mourning the modest difference in eye-candy, I'd get slaughtered.

But, I digress...the subject is "what the hell were you thinking?

I'm thinking that I paid over $150 for three games that I might of spent twenty hours playing, IN TOTAL. I'm also thinking that I never felt the need to filibuster their associated forums with endless, circular-rants detailing BF's BETRAYAL of everything that's sacred to REAL WARGAMERS (me).

Give it a rest. Go post something constructive in a forum dedicated to a game in which you are actually interested. BF gave you demos. If you didn't like them, you shouldn't have bought CMSF. As is, you just sound like you've got an axe to grind.

PoE

[Sixxkiller]

The testers literally found hundreds of bugs or things that were wrong that werent even considered bugs. The ATI card issue is a big one and I cant remember one tester out of all of us that used one, but the fact still remains that it sucks for those card users.

Sadly BFC cant have every rig configuration or thousands of testers. But just for the sake of arguement, what do you think of buying the testers thier rig for CMx3? I will take the Alienware beast. Thank you in advance.

And I know some of you feel like beta testers. Well if BFC hadnt had to rush it, you still wouldnt be happy as you wouldnt even have it for another few weeks.

[Tarquelne]

I imagine distributors of computer games, if they are like any kind of distributor, need time to set up things.

From talking to a variety of people who must sell through publishers I get the impression that is correct.

It's a matter of gestation time.

After the Publisher Queen implants her eggs they'll be bursting through chest walls come hell or high water. At that point there's a lot of hungry little Marketers running around. If you don't have large quantities of warm mammalian blood available, plus a ready-to-ship product, you'll find yourself in quite a pickle.

For one thing, if fed on nothing but blood the next stage of the life-cycle is Lawyer. Shipping really is the best option.

[KNac]

I'm sure testers knew of most problems previous to release, be them bugs, things that were unpolished, or whatever. I don't think people who makes claims (not referring to you personally) are mroe wise than current beta-testers.

The thing is... testers don't fix stuff, they discover it. The current problems are a matter of fixing them, yes some bugs still have to be pinned down a bit more (ie gf8xxx problem), but is not the case with most stuff. The problem is/was: contractual obligations + limited time to fix/program stuff.

I don't think there was a general "yay, the game is fine, release it!" this is a decission testers DON'T make, is a decission that even BF can't make on its own in the current situation, cause there are other parties involved, like pubblishers.

I don't feel betrayed, I feel I have bought an unfinished game with a lot of potential (much mroe than CMx1 had) which eventually I KNOW will get there (due to past performance of the developer house). I bought it after trying demo etc. so I know what I was buying, I don't blame anyone.

In the end, as someone said in the forum, I put it this way: is 40 bucks, for a lot of hours of enjoyment, sometiems frustrations, but with each patch is getting better. 40 bucks can be a lot to some people, but I remember much more times I've spent 40 bucks and were a total waste. If I don't like it, I move on.

This points have been made over and over, we get one week w/o a thread with non-productive feedback or discussion but then all the sudden we have new useless posts about external reviews, how the game sucks or what BF did bad. All this have been said over and over, and it's pointless and tirefulll to repeat it.

Just my 2 cents

[MarkEzra]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Hey, I hate NASCAR - I think its a boring sport. Maybe I'll go find a NASCAR chat group and NEVER STOP POSTING MY OPINIONS ON IT!

Mikey: I hate NASCAR, too. I'll come with you and tag team every post...Like Mikey sez...NASCAR sucks and all you NASCAR "FanBoys" just "don't get it"

[Mishga]

NASCAR is the most boring "sport" on earth apart alongside Formula 1 processions that are called "races".

I heard that the cars in NASCAR are actually set up to lean to the left when driving so really....they just get held on track by the driver and the crowd waits for a crash or an explosion to go with there hotdogs and lite beer

WARNING: SENSE OF HUMOUR NEEDED TO BE ABLE TO ENJOY THIS POST!!

[Abbott]

Originally posted by thelmia:

Oh yeah, the t72 game! I played the demo. How did that turn out?

Heh, I purchased T-72 based on BFC's past performance, what a let down that was. It did save me from purchasing CM:SF. If the 1:1 grid issues, LOS/LOF issues and AI issues can not be fixed, I just may wait for the next CM:release and see how that one goes. I will not make another advance purchase.

[Dennis50]

Humour noted ...however, I grew up with stock car racing ..lived 3 blocks from the local dirt track as a kid ..I lived for racing and working on cars ..nascar was king ..Hot Rod magazine was my bible (I think that track was where I aquired my hearing loss, lol). All that being said ..I can not stand nascar anymore. If I try to watch a race on tv ..after about 15 minutes I change channels or walk away. Formula 1 is better than nascar times 20 ..but I'm starting to drift away from F1 also ..That Hamilton kid sure was a surprise this year though. Anymore I like sports car racing like GT ..it's not too popular here in the U.S. for some reason so pickings are kind of slim on the speed channel. Europe has lots of road racing that I like ..but as always the U.S. thinks they are best thing since sliced bread.

Think I'm going to get pounced upon here by the nascar fans so I'll just retreat to my corner of the garage for a bud light.

Regards,

Gunz

[MarkEzra]

Oh, Lord why did I ever post that NASCAR bit!?

"What the Hell WAS I Thinking!?"

[Mishga]

hehe

GT racing does have more appeal. Used to be on Channel 4 here in the UK on a sunday morning.

I prefer Coors lite myself

[Abbott]

Originally posted by GunzAbeam:

Think I'm going to get pounced upon here by the nascar fans so I'll just retreat to my corner of the garage for a bud light.

Regards,

Gunz

Nascar fans in training.

[Dennis50]

Originally posted by Abbott:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GunzAbeam:

Think I'm going to get pounced upon here by the nascar fans so I'll just retreat to my corner of the garage for a bud light.

Regards,

Gunz

Nascar fans in training. </font>

[Dennis50]

Originally posted by Mishga:

hehe

GT racing does have more appeal. Used to be on Channel 4 here in the UK on a sunday morning.

I prefer Coors lite myself

What? What? ...All that great Euro alkihol and you like spring water?

Regards,

Gunz

[Dennis50]

Originally posted by MarkEzra:

Oh, Lord why did I ever post that NASCAR bit!?

"What the Hell WAS I Thinking!?"

Relax ..It'll die out ..not alot there to really get the gray matter to start firing off ..

Regards,

Gunz

[aka_tom_w]

"Assuming the overall group thought it was ready - that's the judgemnet I was attacking. "

FOR sure, if they could post and not get into trouble with the NDA, I would take a WILD guess and suggest, they would all say, they knew it was not ready for prime time!

"Ok, it was a contract dead line that predicated the release in an unfinished state, not beta-tester concurrence it was "ready". Now I understand. "

I think you can be pretty sure you have right now, it has NOTHING to do with NASA or the Challenger disaster or "group think". There was a deadline and the game HAD to go off to reproduction "ready or not". There was a HARD deadline and they met that deadline.

[ September 16, 2007, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Dennis50]

Yep ..and that's that ..it's the way of business ..it happened. Now the boys have to make it right and I think They will do their very best.

Regards,

Gunz

[C'Rogers]

NASCAR sucks and all you NASCAR "FanBoys" just "don't get it"

Well I think NASCAR fans are the only one "get it", the rest of us don't.