New to CM:SF

[MeatGrinder]

Hello folks.

I had my first experience with a combat missions game perhaps a year or two ago. I had played many real time strategy games for pc, but was completely blown away by CM. The focus on realism was unlike any other game I had played. However, at that time CM was under development. It had a few features I was particularly interested in, namely real time controls. I was also looking forward to the 1:1 unit mapping. And frankly, I found the concept of a realistic modern war game quite compelling - none really exist, to my knowledge.

Because of these above features I held off of purchasing any of the CM games. My preference for a modern war game was partially responsible for this as well, though I would definitely buy a WW2 CMx2 based game.

Anyway, I forgot about CM:SF for about a year. A few weeks ago, I had recalled it was under development. A quick log into the website revealed that not only had it been released, but there was even a demo!

I downloaded it. From the second a paltry Syrian force wiped out by M1A1 tanks and took my infantry to task, I was hooked. Within a day I ordered CM from Battlefront for $45. I wanted to make sure as many dollars went to them for this game, and not some publisher, so they would keep making more.

I love this game so far. I have played through many scenarios, some with better results then others. I love how even the US has superior technology, you can still get your keister handed to you if you use have a bad plan.

On one particular mission, really the first one I tried in earnest, I could not seem to make a foothold into an enemy held village. I sent a platoon of dismounted infantry over the southern berm that held Highway 4, and brought my strykers up as fire support. I then tried to maneuver my second platoon in from the east. All 4 strykers from my first platoon were quickly destroyed by enemy RPGs and ATGM fire, but I did manage to get a few squads of infantry into the some of the first rows of buildings.

The second platoon faired a bit better initially, and I was able to insert some squads along the easter border. However, in short order, my second platoon of strykers were destroyed or disabled in the narrow streets. I eventually quit the mission with my force broken.

Further attempts revealed that my first attempt gave me quite a bit of luck. I did far less well subsequently, getting squads mowed down coming over the souther berm, and have muultiple strykers taken out by rpgs and atgms, killing the still mounted squad.

And so I spoke to my brother, an infantryman currently in Iraq serving in the 82nd airborn. He had never played this game before, or any CM game. Still he was very intersted to discuss tactics, so I laid the scenario out for him - the terrain, the enemy, the friendlies.

And so he gave me some general guidelines. He told me to go slow, and have tactical patience, to let the situation develope. To engage initially with smaller number of forces to spot the enemy. Then to suppress and destroy with stand off weapons. He told me to learn my weapon ranges, and to use them. Make liberal use of smoke. He suggested more fire support, but I had only one mortar platoon for the mission.

A quick trip to the forums provided a vital tip as well - The Javelin. I didn't realize I could acquire them from the strykers. The made up for the limited mortar support I would get.

And so this time, I approached the game with a different plan. I dismounted my first platoon south of the highway 4 berm again, but this time popped smoke and carefully edged them up to just looking over the berm. (I had learned that a few feet is the difference between beign in cover, and being totally exposed.) Once the smoke cleared, I started spotting targets and gave my machinegunners orders to lay down suppressive fire. I deployed several squads from teh second platoon just over the berm to the SE of the village, giving them a vantage point into the eastern city approach. Javelins made quick work on enemy units fighting from roofs. As soon as I felt I had suffiently suppressed the enemies rpg/atgm units, I edged a stryker with a mk-19 through a small gap in teh berm and gave it a limited field of fire on other regular units. They were quickly suppressed.

After some time working with javelins, machine guns, Most of the roofs had been cleared. Many of the enemy units had either been killed, or decided to stay low. I moved my south platoon in and took the first row of houses. I was able to move my south strykers in quickly to the first street without taking any fire, and found it to be clear. With a few units and javelins providing over watch from the SE, I brought a few more squads from the eastern approach.

Working a methodically now, I advanced in trying to provide bounding over watch for vehicles, and keyholing them carefully to prevent another disastrous ATGM attack. Soon enough my tank reinforcements showed up. I eventually cleared to the other side of the city, and quit the mission for failure to find a few remaining enemy. But never the less, I felt successful - I had more then gained a foothold, I had successfully maneuvered through the entire area of operation with minor losses.

And that's what I love about this game - I can talk to my brother, whose never played, and apply his ideas - and they work. No other strategy computer game I have played models combat to the level where real world tactics are applicable, but here they do feel that way.

I have read the forums and read many of the issues that people are having. Alot of them haven't really bothered me yet, and I know that many others have many months longer then I awaiting 1.05. But I love this game so far, and I am very excited for the patch.

Most of the things I want to see are things that have been mentioned here before several times, such as an LOS tool, or much greater control over the quick missions. Being able to set different time lengths for scenarios, etc.

I see so much potential for not only this game, but addons or others that might follow. A ww2 Cmx2 game? Yes please. How about a cold war one? Count me in. Arab-Israeli conflicts? I would definitely buy it. I would love to play as the soviets in Afghanistan as well, I have even enjoyed a few scenarios modeled as such.

The more I learn about the game the more I like it. I will probably get into designing scenarios at some point as well. I just wanted to put in my two cents here. I know many are awaiting the new patch, and I am excited to see what it contains as well, but this is a great game. I think over time it will only continue to get better.

[mike_the_wino]

What?!!??!?! No negative comments? How much did Steve pay you? Are you Steve?

j/k Welcome. I really liked the AAR. I may just have to fire up CMSF when I get home. Most of the features that you list as differences from CMX1 are the very things that make playing it difficult for me. I keep getting my clock cleaned by moving too quickly. Going to have to revisit the game with those tips provided. Thanks for the info.

[aka_tom_w]

you should be playing now with the latest v1.04 patch

right?

and if you can hold on just a bit longer the v1.05 is rumoured to be released soon.

Welcome!

What a great AAR! (Very cool info about using your brother's real world military tactics, excellent way to approach the game and the tactical challenge presented to you!)

Many thanks for the post and sharing or fun and pleasure with the game with the rest of us

Cheers

[Thomm]

Ha, a positive thread!

Let me add one thing: download the "Return to Ba Bado" scenario and count the number of units CMx2 pushes in real time in that scenario with no serious slowdown on my Dell business(!) laptop!

It is extremely impressive!

Best regards,

Thomm

[MarkEzra]

www.CMMODS.com Is where you will find player made Scen and Quick battle Maps (you WILL NEED to dl these to get all styles of maps/battles covered by the game. Your purchased product has only a few Quick Battle Maps and doesn't cover every situation.) Welcome to the family!

[Field Marshal Blücher]

I've had similar experiences to yours. I've read accounts of the Iraq war and just go in and try what I read about and it works surprisingly well! That's why I love this game so much.

[MeatGrinder]

Tom thank you very much! I am using v 1.04, so I'm up to date for now. Again, thanks for the welcome.

Rollstory, I will definitely download that scenario. So far done some big battles and VERY impressed with what the engine can handle.

It's funny that a positive thread is scarce around here! Steve didn't pay me anything, I guess I just like it. From reading threads here I see that many people feel the game has great potential, but some are more jaded as to whether or not it will ever be realized. I'm optimistic because I just think it needs some tweaks here and there, and BF seems like they are willing to do it.

Mike thanks for the feedback! I'm surprised people liked my AAR so much. Heck that makes me wanna go run missions and write more. Some missions I do well on, and some are rather punishing.

I know what you mean about adjusting to modern war. It's the accuracy, range, and power of the weaopns. In ww2 I guess you could be shooting from a KM away, but it might take multiple shots to get that penetration. So tanks were very "hard" targets.

Not so in modern times. Even an M1A1 on the move can be taken out in SF by an ATGM from kilometers away. (Something, for instance, they generally haven't had to deal with in Iraq)

I recommend going to www.books.google.com, then looked up "Bear went over the Mountain: Soviet Combat Tactics in Afghanistan", you can read the whole thing online. It has many AAR (vignette's, really) from the soviet experience over there. Some of the information is useful, although the common Mujahadeen tactic was to leave a small rear guard to delay the attack while the main force retreated. Therefore the soviets used lots of Air Assaults to cover the likely avenue of retreat, and then attack with a main Force. In SF, everyone seems to be more intent to fighting to the death, so generally it seems this sort of thing is not as important (hmmm, I should get crackin' on some scenarios that MAKE it important...hehehe)

I've learned a few things from reading, chatting with my brother, and experimenting in CM that apply to modern war:

1) Vehicles are useful, but extremely vulnerable. I only expose infantry until I can sufficiently spot and confirm that that enemy AT assets are either suppressed or destroyed. Okay, I don't ONLY do that, but when I don't I end up with dead vehicles.

2) Dominant terrain matters big time. I always start with just a few squads spread out or split up among terrain features to get good spotting. With Javelins and some MGs youc an provide overwatch, and even destroy some targets. Once in the cities, I usually try to develop a situation so I can take the higher buildings.

3) My brother strongly what he likes to call "assaulting by fires", which essentially boils down to using whatever fire power you can to suppress or destroy targets before moving any further. Once you've siezed dominant heights, use Javelins, machine guns, Mk-19s, 25 mm ac or 105 mm main gun fire to destroy and suppress targets before moving any further. Don't expose ANY vehicles, even a little, if there are any ATGM units within LOS. Damn top attack even takes out "hull down" vehicles.

4)If you have enough fire support assets, try to have a screen of fire ahead of your troops to suppress the enemy. (BTW, one thing I REALLY want is artillery smoke rounds) If Fire support is limited reserve it for suppressing and destroying critical spotted targets. I tend to save it for ATGM and rpg teams I see, because tanks and other vehicles can easily clean up regular infantry.

5) Tactical patience. Can't stress this enough. The mission is a little slower in the beginning, but you generally want to have just a few units on different vantage points to get up on some hills, take a look. See who shoots back at you. Really spotting is what this is all about. Once you see what you are up against, and where the enemy are located, you can plan your moves a little better. I tried a lot of drive up to builds, pop smoke and dismount. This almost always resulted in instant death. Also the more you know about enemy positions, the more effectively you can use your fire support options.

I'm sure some experienced vets, skilled Armchair generals, or CM experts will be in here shortly to denounce all of my suggestions as the wrong way to do it, but it's just what I've seen so far.

And war is sometime just war. I was doing a mission last night (where you have to take a small city and hold the hospital, a school and an armory) and everything went almost perfectly. I lost almost no troops and only a few vehicles. At the end I sent a Stryker MGS, and 2 other strykers to some hills outside of teh city where an enemy force had retreated. It was on ATGM squad and one infantry squad (with RPG). My almost perfect mission was derailed by those two, they took out 3 vehicles. Of course that's my fault, I didn't take the necessary precautions, but I think it was just a small rifle squad so I didn't do any recon...

I ended up having to mount troops again, send them over and dismount to crest the hill for a good firing position.

Anyway thank you for the warm welcome all!

[Webwing]

MeatGrinder,

Welcome! Wow, two long posts with loads of interesting stuff in them. Taking note....

--

[Other Means]

I'll echo the welcome.

What I've found most important in urban battles is there is usually one building that's on a slight angle to the street, so you can dominate the crossroads from it. Two of them plus the high ground and you can divide up into sectors, define them with MG's and move the bulk of your force as a sweep.

Support weapons in enfilade and firepower firepower firepower.

Now I understand those youtube vids of Iraq where buildings are completely saturated with fire.

[aka_tom_w]

Meatgrinder, there is absolutely nothing wrong with your tactics, most people here can learn a lot from what you are posting and sharing in this thread

[bigmac1281]

I'm amazed that someone totally new to the game can come in, use solid tactics he's learned from his brother, and excel at the game. Really is a testament to the game, if you ask me.

Originally posted by MeatGrinder:

1) Vehicles are useful, but extremely vulnerable. I only expose infantry until I can sufficiently spot and confirm that that enemy AT assets are either suppressed or destroyed. Okay, I don't ONLY do that, but when I don't I end up with dead vehicles.

Right on the money. This is where recon comes in. Send out a small force ahead to scout for ATGM's, enemy tanks, RPG teams, etc. When it's clear, you can bring up your armour/strykers. If you send the vehicles in first, they'll likely be taken out within minutes, usually with you not even knowing where it came from.

Originally posted by MeatGrinder:

2) Dominant terrain matters big time. I always start with just a few squads spread out or split up among terrain features to get good spotting. With Javelins and some MGs youc an provide overwatch, and even destroy some targets. Once in the cities, I usually try to develop a situation so I can take the higher buildings.

Correct again. High ground is important. Denies the enemy the ability to maneuver undetected.

Originally posted by MeatGrinder:

3) My brother strongly what he likes to call "assaulting by fires", which essentially boils down to using whatever fire power you can to suppress or destroy targets before moving any further.

Agree. Light em up when you spot em. Be relentless with your suppressive fire and fire support. Only advance when they're completely suppressed or completely destroyed.

Originally posted by MeatGrinder:

4)If you have enough fire support assets, try to have a screen of fire ahead of your troops to suppress the enemy.

Only problem being most often there isn't enough fire support to do this as well as we'd like. But I do try to time my movements with my fire support, so the artillery is falling on the enemy position before I move up.

Originally posted by MeatGrinder:

5) Tactical patience. Can't stress this enough. The mission is a little slower in the beginning, but you generally want to have just a few units on different vantage points to get up on some hills, take a look. See who shoots back at you. Really spotting is what this is all about. Once you see what you are up against, and where the enemy are located, you can plan your moves a little better. I tried a lot of drive up to builds, pop smoke and dismount. This almost always resulted in instant death. Also the more you know about enemy positions, the more effectively you can use your fire support options.

Yep, this all boils down to recon again. If you just run in blindly you'll be massacred. Find out where the enemy is, suppress them, and annihilate them.

Welcome to the forum.

[mike_the_wino]

Originally posted by MeatGrinder:

And war is sometime just war. I was doing a mission last night (where you have to take a small city and hold the hospital, a school and an armory) and everything went almost perfectly.

Is this one of the scenarios that came on the disk? Ighbur or sumfink lik dat? I think that is the scenario I started last night. Using a more patient approach I was able to finish that game when I went home for lunch with only losing a MG crew (wiped out when I moved them too far forward) and 2 or 3 other squad members.

BTW, I guess I should have kept up more closely, or just paid more attention to what I was doing. I accidently loaded up 2 squads with 7.62 ammo...which they never needed nor used.

I am still on the original version of the game as I don't have internet access to d/l the patch which sucks. I could not get a squad to go back to the Stryker and reload. :mad: Has that all ready been fixed or is it going to be in 1.05?

[MarkEzra]

Mike the wino said:

"I am still on the original version of the game as I don't have internet access to d/l the patch which sucks."

Maybe somebody could mail a disc with the patches?

[mike_the_wino]

That would be great. I would even wait until 1.05 comes out so I only have to load it up once.

[MarkEzra]

If you have Paradox then I can't help. If you have BFC than I can copy the incremental files.

[mike_the_wino]

er, not at home right now. But I pre-ordered and loaded up from the disk that came with it.

I was going to d/l here at work, after hours of course. Unfortunately our connection is not that great and my co-worker looked at the file size and gasped. I figured I would just wait until I got settled into a permenant place but that won't happen until end of January. The lack of internet wasn't too bad when I was working 60-70 hours per week but I am starting to feel an emptyness.

[MarkEzra]

Let me know if I can help...

[Sixxkiller]

Mike, I will be happy to send you the patches via mail when 1.05 is completed. Just send me your address to sixxkillersquadron@hotmail.com.

[M1A1TC]

Having first hand experience in the US Army combat arms definatly helps in this game

Id love to see a game between a military veteran and a regular gamer. Who would win? Whose tactics would rule supreme? Or is it about who clicks the hot keys the fastest?

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:

Having first hand experience in the US Army combat arms definatly helps in this game

Id love to see a game between a military veteran and a regular gamer. Who would win? Whose tactics would rule supreme? Or is it about who clicks the hot keys the fastest?

Well

Playing the Syrians is hard...

Its hard to configure this battles (IMHO) in this game for a fair fight between two humans.

Its fun to routinely kick butt as the Blue side against the Red AI, but try playing (when TCP works) the Red side against an even half decent human player playing the blue side, the Javelins alone will make it very hard to do well in a "fair" fight as the Syrians. I am not sure "who can click faster" is really a big deal when it comes to playing the Syrians (they are brittle and crack and route easily) and dealing with the never ending Javelin hits on your vehicles. IMO