Did piracy kill the commercial viability of CMx1?

[KNac]

Originally posted by Bigduke6:

Once CMSF gets functional, it will be interesting to see how much value the market decides is in that game.

The problem is that "damage" has been allready done. It's very hard to recover from a bad release. And the worse problem, is that next product, will suffer the collateral damage of the first bad release due to consumers losing confidence in company.

We will see though, how "bad" has been this release with bugs and that all.

[thelmia]

I can't play multiplayer, so it's a bad release as far as I'm concerned. I'll have no one to play with because my group is sick of fighting lag and bugs.

I automatically bought this game on the basis of the last 3 games, which I bought at realease for full price. I won't do that again.

I've already told everyone else in the guild not to buy it because they'll have no one to play with, either. I feel kind of bad because I encouraged 4 people to get it and now they're all stuck with a dud. We can't play with each other, which sucks.

[Barleyman]

For me CMBB was most interesting by far; One reason is that the war was actually decided in east front -41/-42 and the writing was on the wall for nazis by -43.

Other big reason is that the engine actually improved in many and relevant ways CMBO->CMBB .. There was no going back to CMBO after all the new tools in your disposal such as covered arcs, hull down, shoot + scoot and so forth.

CMAK on the other hand, I didn't get since afrika is not very interesting as IRL it was a sideshow most relevant for tying up a disproportionate amount of commonwealth troops.. Plus, as others said, the vehicles, terrain, tactics, ho-hum..

[Rastakyle]

Originally posted by Lt Bull:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by metalbrew:

Your analogy reminded me of....

Haha, well if you don't have the imagination to see the parallels in the analogy, then I just hope you enjoyed the story. (maybe I shouldn't of been so abstract and just aimed for a 1:1 representation instead )

You can't see how a "hand made" product that took years to make like CMx1 can be/could be/was seen by BFC as "their baby"? I have even seen BFC use the phrase "it's like someone telling you your baby is ugly" in reference to how they handle critiscm.

Originally posted by metalbrew:

So did piracy hurt BTS? I can't say. I know that it is unavoidable though.

Absolutely unavoidable. But were BFC particularly vulnerable/too vulnerable to it? </font>

[Lt Bull]

Originally posted by Rollstoy:

Yes, it was a protest, because for me the game was unplayable without grid mods, and I did not agree with releasing the game like that. I was so pissed when I found out about that game-deciding ravine in the demo midway through the game, because I stumbled into it on level 1 accidentially.

Wow! This stuff really surprises me.

Almost sounds like you are talking about CMSF! I think the depiction of bare plain desert terrain elevation in CMSF is probably WORSE than what we saw in CMAK. It is a pity the CMAK demo put you off. Personally, I think the CMAK demo (more specificaly the scenarios that came with it) may of actually done more harm than good in showcasing the game. I believe it missed on the opportunity to demostrate the versatility of the game itself to be adaptable to depict even NW European theatre OOBs and engagments.

Originally posted by Rollstoy:

I did not wait for it to go to the bargain bins, by the way. I just stumbled across it accidentially.

It's not really the point. You chose not to buy the game when it was originally released for the very price BFC was originally selling it for as a kind of as a kind of "protest" for the reasons you have mentioned. I thought people didn't buy CMAK (or CMx1 in general) because they wanted RT (well, thats what I am being told to believe).

[Muletears]

While novelty and theme must have been factors in CMBO's sales dominance, I reckon the main reason it outsold its successors is simple...

It was around for longer, and sat on *many more* shop shelves.

CMBO had a couple of budget releases in Europe, not to mention a multipack release. These will have generated a large portion of its total sales. CMBB and CMAK had far less exposure.

[Thomm]

Originally posted by Lt Bull:

Almost sounds like you are talking about CMSF!

With CM:SF it was a 180 degree different story. CM:SF I preordered not because of any stellar expectations (I did not have any since it had 'work in progress' written all over it) but because I thought I owed it to BFC for frequenting these forums for the past years alone.

Needless to say, I do not regret it at all, because I am having great fun with the campaign, and no hardware problems at all (guess a business laptop digs Open GL driven graphics engines).

Best regards,

Thomm

[bruce90]

Originally posted by Sirocco:

Afrika Korps? Call it The Big Red One and have a picture of a GI coming ashore in North Africa on the cover.

So given that so many posters here are not American where is Battlefronts' biggest market.

The US or the rest of the world?

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by bruce90:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sirocco:

Afrika Korps? Call it The Big Red One and have a picture of a GI coming ashore in North Africa on the cover.

So given that so many posters here are not American where is Battlefronts' biggest market.

The US or the rest of the world? </font>

[pocketrocket]

I bought CMAK by buying a bundle that had CMBO and CMBB and CMAK on it.

When CMAK came out I was in no rush to buy it because I couldnt see how it would add to the CMx1 experience that I could have with CMBB.

I saw it more as an expansion rather than a new game.

CMBB made quite a leap from CMBO but CMAK only took the weeniest of steps from BB.

I knew I would get AK eventualy but was in a position to wait till the price dropped.

So in effect I have bought BO and BB twice and then only paid a tenner for a bundle with AK on it which in effect is paying 3 quid for it, bargain.

Now I am a massive CMx1 fan but even I was in no rush to get AK because it was really only an expansion into another theater. If there had been any significant changes in code and gameplay I would have bought it on pre order like I did CMBB.

So the reasons why AK sold the least are intuitively obvious to me.

However I think Battlefront are still looking at this the wrong way. They shouldnt look at the CMx1 games as 3 different games, they should look at them as one engine.

Then they should look at how well that engine sold compared to other engines in the niche war gaming market.

Well I dont have any data on that admitedly, but I would imagine that it outperformed massively the cast majority of them. Now why did it outperform them?

Simple, it had one design feature that made it unique, WEGO, which made the engine far superior imo to the standard yougoIgo nature of most wargames.

This is where BF have made an error in judgement.

They should have taken the sales of the engine as a whole, realized that it was a massive success relative to competing engines in the wargamming market and then sought to identify the reason for that success e.g. WEGO.

So to replicate the success of the original engine WEGO had to be enhanced and regenerated and given a new lick of paint. Instead it has been effectively abandoned in favour of a whole new design paradigm e.g. RT.

This engine as stands will not do as well commercialy as the original CMx1 engine imo. It may have substantial improvements and the theatre will change to WW2 and sales may improve.

Then we will see the opposite trend with subsequent engine incarnations selling better than the original.

[Thomm]

My personal counter-point to this it that since the download I have neither played WeGo once nor do I think I will anytime soon!

One hour real-time games before bed-time are the way to go for me!

Best regards,

Thomm

[undead reindeer cavalry]

there is no way i would have ever bought CMAK under normal conditions, because for my needs and interests CMBB is vastly superior to CMAK (and it has nothing to do with it that CMBB has Finns since i practically never play with Finns in CMBB).

the reason i bought CMAK:

i had to reinstall Windows and found out that CMBB CD installer no longer worked (i guess the CD had been too many years in the drive - damn SECUROM). local store didn't have CMBB any more and because i wanted to play CM that very evening i had to buy CMAK. i thought about just downloading CMBB from some torrent (i had a valid license to the game anyway) but didn't want the hassle. so i bought & played CMAK until i managed to find a store with CMBB.

under normal conditions i would have never played CMAK even if i had gotten it for free, so piracy has nothing to do with it.

[Lt Bull]

Originally posted by Rastakyle:

Anyone who pirated CM.x would most likely have absolutely no intention to ever buy it, and probably didn't even play it....If you are interested in turn based wargames, and there is a title you want, only an extreme minority would pirate it.

I'm not so sure about that, especially if you are talking about the less grogy/more casual gamer (probably more a RTS player) looking for a decent wargame to play, not sure on whether this weird/exotic WEGO syetem is for them and worth just yet spending any $ on. This is the VERY market that BFC was hoping would help grow their market base by buying the game if they had a chance.

There was always one place where you could always buy CMx1 if you went looking for it on the internet. At the BFC website, but there you were sure to find a top dollar price that only your hardcore market would feel comfortable paying, and who wants to do that with someting new/novel/quirky that you might not even like? Plus you would then also have to wait a few weeks for it to be delivered? Was it worth the risk, $ and effort to a new and cautious potential buyer?

So what do these potential buyers do? They go looking elsewhere for it, in retail stores. Do they find it on the shelf next to all the other popular games out there? Probably not, as BFC never had any retail market presence with CMBO to begin with and then struggled to get it when they finally decided to go down the retail market path with later CMx1 releases. Can't blame them now for not buying it or even going down the warez route if presented with the opportunity. Maybe many did eventually end buying it, but way later, when they happened to see it in a bargain bin.

If you heard about the game and were heart set on owning it/trying it out, you might of even have tried to find it locally at a retail outlet and then just given up in vain and just gone down the warez route given the opportunity.

Originally posted by Muletears:

While novelty and theme must have been factors in CMBO's sales dominance, I reckon the main reason it outsold its successors is simple...

It was around for longer, and sat on *many more* shop shelves.

CMBO had a couple of budget releases in Europe, not to mention a multipack release. These will have generated a large portion of its total sales. CMBB and CMAK had far less exposure.

Agree, but I am sure rate of sales and sale trends (info we don't have) provide a better understanding of the real picture. Sure the "time in market" factor may explain the sales figures across the CMx1 series but I don't think it fully explains the "significanty less" sales BFC refer to.

I actually thought that CMBB and more so CMAK had more commercial exposure due to preceeding publicity generated from earlier releases and the retail distribution route BFC eventually took with the series.

Originally posted by Sirocco:

The only people that know the true demographics of sales are BFC.

Even THAT is a bit ambitious of a presumption. You would HOPE that if anyone does really know the true demographics of CMx1 sales, then it you would hope is was BFC. I just know that this kind of information does not come easy.

[Sirocco]

Let me put it this way; what's the subject matter in CMSF? And what will be in the first module?

Knowing your target market is the bedrock of doing business. I would be surprised if BFC weren't all over the sales stats.

[DarthJames]

I would suggest that the reason BB and AK did not sell so well is obvious:

Anyone who looks at the game for 30 seconds sees nothing different to CMBO.

And that is how long you have to grasp someone's attention. Most people (and a lot of reviewers) looked at those games coming out years after CMBO and saw that nothing substantial had changed. And lets face it, the only changes that were made were the ones that only the diehards would really care about. And they would buy it anyway.

This is why the whole "You must stick to your roots" argument is complete rubbish. Nobody wants the same game again. If you are going to make another game you have to make something different in order to justify your retail price.

I've seen the same argument on the Egosoft forums, the CA forums and the Bethsoft forums. People who for some reason want the developers to change nothing so they can buy the second game twice. Buisness doesn't work that way. You have to do something different if you want to get the custom.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by DarthJames:

This is why the whole "You must stick to your roots" argument is complete rubbish. Nobody wants the same game again.

But they do want the same game to realize its fullest potential. CMX1 never did in any of its three guises.

I'm not talking from a commercial standpoint or a coding standpoint, but from a desired feature standpoint. There was tons of stuff the fanbase could agree was missing from CMX1, from simple "follow me" convoy movement orders to more esoteric stuff like amphibious operations.

Hence we come to CMX2 and the disappointment among some that instead of pursuing these goals, the direction of focus has changed on making new features a priority instead of old ones.

However, all these potential fulfilling changes are cosmetic essentially so you are correct - no one would see that CM4: The Pacific introduced convoy "follow me" orders and the ability to scale cliffs, and improved artillery fire orders, all they would see was that same great abstracted squad-based turn-based WEGO interface on a sprawling map able to be randomly generated and populated by point purchase.

[ August 16, 2007, 07:05 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[monkeezgob]

Nice post, but I think you're overcomplicating the situation.

The reason that both the Madden and Total War series still sell well despite basically delivering the same product with each new release is that they appeal to the click-fest crowd. In madden you can control individual players and the outcome depends on you ability as a button-masher. Ok, the Total war series has a strategicv element to it, but the battles are all played out in RT. Neither is a niche product like CMx1.

Piracy may have been a minor contributing factor, but I think the bottom line is that other than for the die-hard grogs amonst us, Cmx1 was always going to have a niche appeal, succesive titles depcited theatres of war that were not as popular as the western front and to a more casual gamer, there seemed to be no obvious development or overhaul of the game engine.

Let's face it, in the gaming market today, a turn based wargame is always going to be a niche product. Hence the decision by BFC to move in a different direction (RTS) to try to broaden its appeal and get some of the Madden, Total War click-fest crowd on board.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by monkeezgob:

Let's face it, in the gaming market today, a turn based wargame is always going to be a niche product.

Sports-sims aren't?

[DarthJames]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DarthJames:

[qb]

This is why the whole "You must stick to your roots" argument is complete rubbish. Nobody wants the same game again.

But they do want the same game to realize its fullest potential. CMX1 never did in any of its three guises.

I'm not talking from a commercial standpoint or a coding standpoint, but from a desired feature standpoint. There was tons of stuff the fanbase could agree was missing from CMX1, from simple "follow me" convoy movement orders to more esoteric stuff like amphibious operations.

</font>

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by DarthJames:

Striving to reach perfection within the limits of what you have is great, but not at the expense of delivering a commercially viable product.

About the only game that has even come close to managing this is The Sims. And that isn't striving for perfection.

Oh, I'm not unaware of that. Just try telling it to the "Consumer Testers" who beta-tested CMX1 to a dead-end for the last 8 years.

CM:BB and CM:AK both stay on my hard drive, so no regrets here. I got more than enough value for what I paid for, in spades. Just sad to see it end this way.

[Capt. Toleran]

Something also to think about -- CMBO was released when WWII was just regaining popularity with the public at large, and especially the Western European front.

Another factor -- the game was very complex and grog-oriented. People who took a chance on the first game and decided it was too much for them (and there are a lot out there, I introduced around 6 people to the game, and not one was still playing it 3 months later). When the sequels came out, on theaters they didn't care about, they probably passed.

Finally, the number 1 complaint I heard about CMx1 from average gamers (not grogs like us, who can appreciate what is going on under the hood) was graphics. Those Lego-like graphics turned away many a gamer who probably would have given it a chance, but were turned off by how dated it looked. CM needed a big graphics refresh.

CMBB also marked a big change in playing styles, as they implemented all the changes we all begged for. Those changes made CM more real, but less fun for some people who were used to galloping across the battlefield at will, instead of having their huddling masses pinned down by MGs. I like realism, as do many others here, but for a game (games are supposed to be fun), we may be in the minority. So really, the demise of CMx1 might be our fault.

I personally am very happy with CMSF, as it has met all my expectations, and continues to improve with every patch. It is my hope BFC makes enough money off this to keep going, and to release more modules. Even given CM history, and the amount of bitching that goes on here, I am really suprised at how sour a lot of people are on the new product. Is it just that many people here are conservative in their personal habits, and have a hard time adjusting to new things? It's not CMx1 with new graphics and 1:1, but it is that same pursuit of reality and fidelity in terms of the battlefield that makes this game so great for me.

[monkeezgob]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by monkeezgob:

Let's face it, in the gaming market today, a turn based wargame is always going to be a niche product.

Sports-sims aren't? </font>

[Sirocco]

CMBB was a great improvement over CMBO. I think it suffered from a poor choice of demo scenarios, but overall it was night and day in terms of how games played out. No more running squads all over the map without them really tiring, for example.

[bitchen frizzy]

Originally posted by Lt Bull:

For me CMAK is essentially also CMBO in thatre scope but with a few less exotic NW European units but with bonus desert and Mediteranean theatre OOBs and battle possibilities! How can it NOT be better than CMBO? I therefore fail to see how CMAK could be any less successful (desirable as a game a gamer woud want to own) than CMBB because:

a) appart from the title, it still essentially lets me play WF/NW Europe

At the time of CMAK's release, this aspect was unknown to customers unfamiliar with the franchise and to impulse buyers browsing the wargame selections. I bought CMAK unaware that it was adaptable to NW Europe. The game title, the box artwork, and the advertising all described a game set in NA/Med. isles.

I bought the game because I loved CMBO and totally loved CMBB. Had I lost interest with the franchise after either of those purchases, I would not have payed for CMAK - at full-game not upgrade prices - until I saw it in the bargain bin.

[Michael Dorosh]

With the addition of the King Tiger, M18 (?) and a handful of units, and a limited set of terrain mods, CM:AK could have modelled all of western Europe in addition to North Africa. I wonder what the sales figures would have been had it been marketed from a Western Europe/Africa angle rather than just "Afrika Korps" which literally refers to a fraction of the German forces in North Africa and doesn't even suggest that Italy was a possibility.

I suppose the danger there is backlash from CM:BO players who felt clever converting CM:AK to NW Europe, but would have been outraged had BFC done it for them.