Underpowered RPG's?

[bodkin]

Just played 'Assault on Precinct 13' and had to call a cease fire with 20 minutes to go as my troops had completely run out of RPG's, many hits on strykers from an average range of 100m but only two kills.

Some missions are going to need some rebalancing I think as sending a squad in to take out a stryker with an RPG now seems to be a bit of a suicide mission.

[Omenowl]

I noticed the accuracy of RPGs was much higher than 1.05. It is about where it was at much earlier patches. I had Strykers hit a fair distance away, which was safe in 1.05. Now the strykers themselves didnt get killed, but the guys with their heads out did.

[MikeyD]

Just a note. AT-4's the Russian ATGM, AT4's the U.S. throwaway recoilless rifle. I've been slapped-down several time over misuse of that darned hyphen.

I've overheard conversations among people 'in-the-know' that the real-life AT4 is not exactly an überweapon in combat. The German non-throw-away Carvl Gustav version was given a honkin-big oversize warhead with standoff probe but U.S. absolutely refused to touch it. U.S. warheads fit all the way INTO the firing tube - that's the rule.

And about Stryker hits. Lately I've been seeing the slat cage doing what it ought to - namely disable the RPG fuse on impact with no resulting explosion (how the cage is supposed to work). it seems about half the straight-on hits against the cage have been duds with this patch.

[molotov_billy]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

I've overheard conversations among people 'in-the-know' that the real-life AT4 is not exactly an überweapon in combat.

What was the reasoning?

*edit* selective memory!

[ February 06, 2008, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: molotov_billy ]

[MikeyD]

Hell, molotov_billy, if it weren't for selective memory I'd have no memory at all!

[molotov_billy]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Hell, molotov_billy, if it weren't for selective memory I'd have no memory at all!

Sorry mike, I meant I removed my paragraph because it was probably just selective memory on my part So we're in the same boat on that one.

[Pandur]

Pandur I did some tests some time ago and regular units score first round hits at 300m, crack units at 400m

wow realy!? that must be some "exclusive" test result i think!?

when did you do the test, in 1.06!?

last game i targeted a house, 110m away, 7 misses 1 hit. i mean, its a house, its big

i go and have a little test myself i think.

[Pandur]

ok i did a verry fast test series.

i noticed that "ALL" RPG7´s in the game are RPG7 V and have optical sights.

beside the fact that they have opics they suck at useing it

all RPG´s where fired from trench, at immobilized T55´s facing away from the trench. on some occasions the t55´s spotted the shooter behind them in trench.

test results;

*7V1 - Crack Republican Guard - 274m - 7shots 7 misses

*7V1 - Veteran Republican Guard - 150m 3 shots 3 misses - T55 turned hte turret and killed the team.

*7V1 - Crack Fighter - between 280 and 400m - 6 shots 5 misses - hit at 280m to no effect.

*7V1 - Veteran fighter - 160m - 3 shots 1 hit - killed by T55

*7V1 - Green Fighter - 170m - 5 shots 5 misses

*7V1 - Conscript fighter - 170m - 6 shots 6 misses

now just one crack fighter scored a "lucky" hit at 280m with his scoped 7V1. given the fact hes crack its ok in my view.

i saw no magical first shot hit at hughe distances, not even below 200m.

i dont know how people manage to produce that!? maybe in the 10th test!?

[Martin Krejcirik]

Pandur, the test I wrote above was with older version, 1.04 I think.

Did a quick 1.06 test, 8x regular fighter RPG team vs 8x immobilized humvee. It seems less accurate now, at 300m 1 kill, at 100m all 8 killed (2 first round hits). Wind has no effect on accuracy.

[Pandur]

8 teams á 6 rockets!? would mean 46. 8 humvees on a range from 100m with 46 rockets with regular man. seems ok for me

[Omenowl]

I noticed they are lousy at hitting anything moving. My stryker was driving along and 2 rpgs were fired and both missed, but when it was stationary they are ok at hitting. I am happy with these results considering it is fairly reasonable to what I saw in CMBO.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Originally posted by Pandur:

8 teams á 6 rockets!? would mean 46. 8 humvees on a range from 100m with 46 rockets with regular man. seems ok for me

I agree with this opinion. The math... not so much.

[Pandur]

oh

well, i confused some things...anyways the probability to hit is even worse than with 48 rockets

[Hev]

Im strating to see a level of randomness that might just make the game fun.

The question is, do we want the game to be consistant ie: rpgs never hit past X hundred meters or do we want a level of "chance" that means we could get hit at x hundred meters + 150 ie: Goddamn it, i thought my strykers were safe 400 meters out, bloody lucky rpg hit!

[Pandur]

hehe, to have another example of "i couldnt hit vehicle X bla bla"...

i just finished playing "ambush in al fubar", you have 2 RPG teams there, 3 shots each.

i scored a total victory by geting as much americans as i lost syrians but both RPG´s utterly failed. one shot 2 shots, 90m, both missed, than the team was humiliated by the Mk19 wich was mounted on the target

the 2nd team was killed befor it could get a shot off, also by Mk19 fire.

the SPG-9 technical you have. i scored 2 first class side shots, both got eaten by the slat armor. does that also work that well agains the SPG9 rockets!? i mean the fuse must be somewhat similar, both are HEAT, but i didnt knew this works for both.

PS.:

guys, go ahead and play some battles as RED vs BLUE side, you wont come back moaning about the RPG´s

[FkDahl]

Now now. The AT4 (or Pansarskott 86) is a Swedish weapon. It is a recoilless gun: gives a frettin loud bang when fired. I have only fired the 9mm practice version (a 9 mm tracer bullet that has the same trajectory as the real grenade), and when you are not being fired upon hitting a tank at 100,200 or 300 m is easy. A T-80 or Abrams doing 70 km/h is a different matter.

Now for the effectiveness. The AT4 is supposed to have 400 mm+ RHA penetration with nasty behind armor effect. That is against tanks ... and I am not sure if one has ever been fired in combat against tanks. On liveleak.com you can see it used in Iraq or Afghanistan against insurgents hiding in houses or behind some rocks... and if it is not so effective when used in that role I am not surprised. Now, with a carl-gustav firing HE you can time the grenade to explode above the trench or crevice ... or inside the house but for some reason I cannot fully fathom the US is not fielding the CG on a wide basis.

-Has the AT4 been used by insurgents against US troops?

[Secondbrooks]

Pandur: Did you do multiple runs on that test?

I perfomred rag-tag test with AT4. Not to be taken too seriously, as this was just a quick test repeated 6-8 times without too much analyzing.

I tried at ranges 100, 150, 200 at BTRs. There was 5 stationary BTRs, two in 100 meter, two in 150 meter and one in 200 meter. Overall results could be from way ****e (one hit out of 6 shots!) to somewhat good (4-5 out of 6). Usually BTR at 100 meters was hit, but BTR at 200 meters never. There seemed to be major random factor in here and i believe it affects to all infantry weapons (accuracy dropped)

Worst shots crashed ground half way to target... Has someone replaced part of powder with mold? That would explain their low bang voice... Soviets did that, but Sweden as well in CMSF??? I'm shocked!

...yeah... Back to test.

They were regular US-troops, sadly i'm not sure were some of AT4s fired by not-AT-spezialist. Overall results seemed to be quite poor. Well usually for US it's not problem as they rely on other gear like Javelins, Abrams, TOWs, MGSs.

Syrian squad has more grenades at it's disposal, so it's not that bad for them either. Today played with veteran Syrians and they did hit quite well with RPG-7s, so i'm not complaining... Well i haven't led greens with spare ammo yet, so my opinion might change

[ February 07, 2008, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: Secondbrooks ]

[Secondbrooks]

OH! I get it! i get it!

Usually atleast another AT4 is fired by marksmen, that explains the poor results.

Also another thing: AT4s are fired in fast phase (as they usually should be), problem might be smoke. If that #@%¤$! marksman would give AT-specialist first shot, then our handsome and manly AT-specialist might hit even better than now. Now that #@%¤$! marksman fires his AT4 and misses as usual, grenade hits ground in between them and target -> we have dust cloud not enough to block visibility but enough to make visibility worse. AT-specialist have much more harder task to hit... This was causing problems with Syrian ATGM's accuracy in earlier versions if i remember right: dust cloud from ingition was blocking gunners view.

Tried out with regular US squads again today and when i managed to spot that AT-specialist is handling the pipe, they usually achieved pretty good results. Well done, i say.

As a sidenote: Best part was that when one Syrian platoon was able to take out usually 2 out of 3 Abrams (one 100 meter away, another 150 meter and last 200 meter. Showing their vulnereable arses to Syrians), US Stryker Platoon's riflesquads didn't manage to do this. Rearely they managed to cause mobility kills and i think that after multiple test runs only once crew bailed out. Abramses also spotted Redfor US troops after first shot. With Syria i'm not sure did i see this happening so requlary... Reason might be bigger amount of misses (tank have more time to react).

Another thing. Tried also with Syrian squads and noticed (at least i think i did!) that RPG-teams hit worse than riflesquads. I bet this is because of lacking binoculars. Riflesquad were much more capable to hit tank to 200 meter than RPG-team. Can someone verify?

It's the small things that matters, ain't it? (or i'm dead wrong)

[FkDahl]

Just a note: standard procedure for a Swedish infantry squad is to (or was 10 years ago.. ) have 1 or 2 guys advance with AT4's at the ready, rifle on the back, if the situation is such that enemy tanks/APC are to be expected. So the time required for a first AT4 shot would not be long for well-drilled soldiers (where his friends know not to stand behind him).

[Splinty]

I have fired both an AT-4 and an RPG in RL. The RPG looks like it should be more accurate, the launcher has a small sight with some (2x?) magnification and the whole weapon system is light and easily portable and appears to be well made. The AT-4 OTOH looks cheap, it's made of plastic and the sighting system is two plastic blades on spring mounts. The main thing I noticed at NTC all those years ago was the AT-4 fired out of the tube in a straight line towards the direction of fire, whereas the RPG had a habit of spiraling to the right. Nothing too drastic, but something a gunner would definitely have to be aware of and compensate for.