Bug. ATGM team missing every time.

[kipanderson]

(Note… this is not a spoiler as only used the Brandenbug map, not units.)

Hi,

When an AT14 ATGM team is placed in a certain location, firing down hill but with a great view of his targets, he misses every time. Must have seen him fire twenty missiles over a number of games, all misses.

When I then modded the scenario and changed his location, still same distance but not down hill any more, he did devastating work. Killed with about 50% of his missiles in spite of being partially suppressed and his team taking causalities. Have repeated the tests many times.

( For my own records, scenario Brandenbug Mod and Brandenbug Mod2, 3rd AT platoon/2nd section/B team. )

All the best,

Kip.

[JasonC]

Interesting. Just a guess, but maybe the flight resolution code takes change in altitude into account in flight (modifying speed etc), but the aiming code doesn't?

[SgtMuhammed]

I noticed that ATGMs seemed rather innaccurate as well. I had an M1 sitting in the open for several turns (see the CMSF Folies thread for why) and several shots sailed over or short of it. Only one actually managed to hit the tank.

[moneymaxx]

Same here.

In the demo I wanted to see a Javelin kill. So I stopped my tanks and tried it. 5 missiles against a T72, no hit.

[rune]

Javelins shoul not be missing that much. Syrians, depends on the missile, could be wire guided by an in-experienced crew. The level of troops definitely plays a part.

Rune

[SgtMuhammed]

I'll have to check it out from the Syrian side. I was playing the Demo.

[kipanderson]

Rune,

The AT14 is laser guided in this particular location there is certainly a problem. The same crew, in another location, even when half suppressed and taking causalities Hit 50% of the time. But “never” hit in this location.

All good fun,

All the best,

Kip.

[Battlefront.com]

We'll look into it. As Rune said, the Javelin should practically never miss. We did fix a bug last week that was causing problems and the retesting showed it was fixed. There should be no reason for an AT-14 to miss so much either. It can miss, but not that much. Unlike a Javelin it still requires operator skill.

AT-3s... don't hold out much hope of scoring a hit with those. Also note that they have a 500m dead zone in front of them. AT-4s and up are decently accurate, but easily disrupted.

Steve

[jomni]

If it never misses will it affect balance of gameplay? The Syrian player will surely have a hard time winning (as if they are already having a good time now) if you tweak the hit percentage higher. But of course, we can justify that Syrian commanders have to deal with this REALITY.

[SgtMuhammed]

Finally got around to playing with the Javelin. Wow. 4 shots, 4 hits, one of them by a guy from the company command team.

Syrians finally started getting hits but die quickly after the first shot. AT3 with the whole Neon sign backblast thing. Guess I need to get the full version to do a complete analysis.

I have noticed that my BMPs don't seem to want to fire their AT3's.

[gibsonm]

Kip,

Do you have any idea as to the height differential involved (e.g. firer at X metres, target at Y metres)?

Or perhaps an indication of where on the Brandenburg map you were firing from (and where at)?

[kipanderson]

gibsonm/Steve/rune,

do any of you guys want me to send you the two game files that show the difference between the AT14 performance downhill and on flatter terrain. By the same crew in the same game, just that AT team in a different location in the two games.

All good fun,

All the best,

Kip.

PS. I "think" there is a tendancy for other ATGMs to have the same problem, not sure yet.

[gibsonm]

Kip,

Yes please (email address in profile above).

I'm trying to replicate the conditions and do multiple runs to see if your were just unlucky or the extent of the problem.

So what I'm looking at doing is building a map with a long ridge (same height as yours) and have multiple weapons along the ridge firing at multiple targets (shooting gallery type thing).

I'll run it with different weapons (to see if all ATGMs have the same characteristic) as well as all weapons being the same to see if X out of Y AT-14 miss or whatever.

[molotov_billy]

I've noticed this as well with Bradely TOW's firing downhill at static tanks. It was the 4th or 5th campaign mission, at night, where you get a platoon of bradleys and a platoon of strykers. Every shot would land perfectly about 10 feet in front of the tank. After 5 or 6 shots from multiple bradleys, I had to have a javelin team come over and take out the tank.

[Matthias]

I thought i was triping (or my troops were) when i saw this too, 2 of my AT4 teams, firing slightly download hill at some stykers, the first few shots were quite funny, watching them fire the missile and it falling down after about 40 feet and blowing up (target was about 200 feet away), but after they burnt up all there ammo, and my other anti tank teams (on a level field of the stykers) had died, it wasn't funny.

[ol_mouse]

I also seem to be seeing a bug with the javelin against T72s. One T72 was at the edge of the map and I hit it with about 5 javelins but it kept firing back at me. I thought, "Ok, maybe that's an edge of the map issue" but then had three more javelins miss in a row against another T72. I went to the manual thinking "Uh, do javelins even work against T72s??" and, yes, of course, apparently they should. These don't look like misses. Hit them dead center on top to no effect.

ol_mouse

[thelmia]

I reproduced this in a scenario that I made. An AT 14 team firing downhill at a building kept hitting the ground about 20 yards in front of themselves.

[Battlefront.com]

ol_mouse, was that a T-72 TURMS-T by chance? We know for sure that one particular model has an armor rating bug that defeats Javelins and it shouldn't.

sgtgoody,

Finally got around to playing with the Javelin. Wow. 4 shots, 4 hits, one of them by a guy from the company command team.

Charles and I had the joy of using the prototype Javelin trainer (final stages of development). It was super, duper hightech stuff with gyros on the launcher affecting the targeting display's info. Looking into it felt so very, very realistic. Anyway, there we were... no training on the weapon at all, just our gaming experience. We were killing things left right and center. I even managed to blind guide a Javelin against a moving target that went behind some trees and a hill. The brass and sim guys watching the kill up on a projection screen were impressed I even got congratulations from a 1SGT who, the next day, scattered a real T-72 all over Redstone. Lucky bastard got to do that something like a 1/2 dozen times. As he put it "I have the best job in the world!"

Anyway, the point of that story is to say that the Javelin is so easy to use that there is a fairly low degree of possible user error. The AT-3, on the other hand, has a chance of hitting that hovers towards single digits if the gunner isn't trained. Trained gunners average about 25% hits in simulated training, 65% on perfect shooting range tests. The game edges things towards that 25% chance.

gibsonm has a hilly environment and is doing comprehensive testing with ATGMs firing downhill. We'll probably be able to fix this one up really quickly.

Steve

[Madmatt]

All I got for Christmas was a lump of coal....

[JonS]

Don't worry Matt. Squeeze hard enough and you've got a diamond there.