John Kettler Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 In recently rereading Viktor Suvorov's INSIDE THE SPETSNAZ, I came across a description of what seemed like a terrific technique for protecting tankers' ears during main gun firing. Apparently, in what were then Soviet tanks, pushing the cannon firing button triggers a tiny delay, 1/100th of a second, and a click in the earphones an instant before the gun goes off . According to him, this causes the eardrums? to contract before the blast of the main gun. He says that it works so well the crew doesn't even hear the main gun fire. Have you a) ever heard of this, and do our tanks have anything like it? Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A1TC Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Originally posted by John Kettler: In recently rereading Viktor Suvorov's INSIDE THE SPETSNAZ, I came across a description of what seemed like a terrific technique for protecting tankers' ears during main gun firing. Apparently, in what were then Soviet tanks, pushing the cannon firing button triggers a tiny delay, 1/100th of a second, and a click in the earphones an instant before the gun goes off . According to him, this causes the eardrums? to contract before the blast of the main gun. He says that it works so well the crew doesn't even hear the main gun fire. Have you a) ever heard of this, and do our tanks have anything like it? Regards, John Kettler A) Never heard of it Russian tanks have lots of advanced technology, like Shtora anti-lase shielding, and others The Abrams crewmembers wear CVC helmets, or Combat Vehicle Crew helmets. The new type has really nice soft jelly-like ear cushions, and they also have a switch, which when pushed forward, allows the person to hear the outside enviroment- its like an amplification. Other switch, when pushed forward, allows for inter-crew coversation, while pushed back, allows to speak up higher, a platoon leader or company commander, whatever you have the SINGARS set for I fired the main gun over 100 times, and you never get quite used to it. Some people say they do, and can fall asleep while tanks are firing in the background. As much as Id like to, I can't do that. BTW, its about 10 more days before my deployment. I will be without internet for awhile. Ill miss this forum [ December 31, 2005, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: M1A1TankCommander ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander: BTW, its about 10 more days before my deployment. I will be without internet for awhile. Ill miss this forum Where are you going (assuming that's not classified)? When do you think you'll have access again? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A1TC Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 I am going to Germany, Ill be there for atleast a year. I am not sure what kind of barracks Ill be staying in. Ive read somewhere that high-speed internet there is like 80 Euros. I am not sure I can afford that Ill be getting my new MOS for about 6 weeks, and then leave for Germany in February 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted December 31, 2005 Author Share Posted December 31, 2005 M1A1TankCommander, According to the book, this prefiring click was nothing new as of the 1970s. Suvorov was in a motor rifle company in Czechoslovakia in 1968 and afterwards was promoted to command a tank company. As for Shtora, Drozhd and some other goodies, it is clear that the Soviets/Russians stole a march on us when it comes to fielding integrated vehicle defensive suites, let alone hard kill countermeasures. I appreciate the info on our own tank commo set up and am sorry you most likely won't regularly be with us. I hope you can find affordable Internet access (have you asked our European brethren on the General Discussion Forum?), but if not, agree that 80 Euros constitute a substantial sum. Have a safe and sane deployment! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellfish Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Where in Germany are you going? I was at Hohenfels a few years ago - our barracks were concrete slabs with enough bunkbeds for a platoon. It sucked. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A1TC Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Well, thankfully to my new MOS as MP, I am supose to be going to Heidelberg John, you are right, US prefers heavy armor(passive defense)that can take shot after shot, while Russians prefer fast, light tanks with reactive armor and active defensive measures/ I would hate to go against SHTORA equipped tanks, as I hate shooting in manual mode. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oren_m Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 M1A1 TankCommander, I was a gunner in Merkava Mk.2B, and i noticed that the sound of a firing gun from a near by tank is much louder than the tank you shoot from, do you think it has anything with the speed of sound? i mean, could it be that the blast's sound is so fast the you cant hear most of it when you are close to it? Or could it be that most of the blast's sound is coming out from the main gun, i mean outside the turret and not inside? Anyway, i remeber that during armored operation in the west bank i was able to shoot a round and immidiatly go to sleep, i even once shot with the coax MG while i'm half asleep. Dont worry, no animals were hurt during the operation....just kidding!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Originally posted by oren_m: M1A1 TankCommander, I was a gunner in Merkava Mk.2B, and i noticed that the sound of a firing gun from a near by tank is much louder than the tank you shoot from, do you think it has anything with the speed of sound? i mean, could it be that the blast's sound is so fast the you cant hear most of it when you are close to it? Or could it be that most of the blast's sound is coming out from the main gun, i mean outside the turret and not inside? Anyway, i remeber that during armored operation in the west bank i was able to shoot a round and immidiatly go to sleep, i even once shot with the coax MG while i'm half asleep. Dont worry, no animals were hurt during the operation....just kidding!! I would suspect this is much the same as firing a shotgun and having someone fire a shotgun next to you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A1TC Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Yeah, when we were on a firing line as a platoon, and I was still a loader, I stuck my head out and other tanks firing sounded much louder. Plus the shockwave was cool. Being a gunner is a whole different world. You get so dissoriented by just looking through a narrow point of view, plus it is so hot down there most of the time I had my nomex suit around my knees, just sitting there in my underwear. I hope Merkavas have air-conditioning? Does Merkava have a ballistic computer? You have to input air temp, ammo temp, etc.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oren_m Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander: Yeah, when we were on a firing line as a platoon, and I was still a loader, I stuck my head out and other tanks firing sounded much louder. Plus the shockwave was cool. Being a gunner is a whole different world. You get so dissoriented by just looking through a narrow point of view, plus it is so hot down there most of the time I had my nomex suit around my knees, just sitting there in my underwear. I hope Merkavas have air-conditioning? Does Merkava have a ballistic computer? You have to input air temp, ammo temp, etc.. Ofcourse! What do you think we are? cavemen!? In my tank, the Mk2, we dont have A/C, but in the later models, the Mk3 and Mk4 they have A/C, they have a 2 layer nomex suit with a hole in the front, the A/C is connected to the hole with a flexble tube, so the A/C can cool each and everyone separatly. And another question, what was your longest shooting range? i mean on a noraml target tank size. Oren_m 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 So what is Shtora and how does it work and why are you impressed by it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurtz Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtora http://www.defense-update.com/products/s/shtora-1.htm I detects laser from rangefinders (and target designators), which probably is why M1A1TankCommander doesn't like it. The missile countermeasure is probably not effective against modern ATGMs (unless they are laser beam riders). The signal between missile and launcher is encoded to be more resistant against this type of jamming. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatsee Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Do eardrums really 'contract'? I thought it was just a membrane. So if a pre-firing sound was introduced, perhaps its purpose was to move the membrane into a more favorable position? Perhaps so that it is moving such that it does not get the full impact of the firing? Possibly coming back to rest? Another possibility is sensory-flooding. The mind recieves the clicking sound and is in the process of percieving it and this somehow 'blocks' the perception of the actual louder noise? 1/100th of a second is extremely fast when considering human response time scales. Blinking response is 1/10th of a second for comparison. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oren_m Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Goatsee, you are really new here!! Welcome! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Originally posted by John Kettler: In recently rereading Viktor Suvorov's INSIDE THE SPETSNAZ, I came across a description of what seemed like a terrific technique for protecting tankers' ears during main gun firing. Apparently, in what were then Soviet tanks, pushing the cannon firing button triggers a tiny delay, 1/100th of a second, and a click in the earphones an instant before the gun goes off . According to him, this causes the eardrums? to contract before the blast of the main gun. He says that it works so well the crew doesn't even hear the main gun fire. Have you a) ever heard of this, and do our tanks have anything like it? Regards, John Kettler I didnt think the ear drum was anything more than just a membrane and not a muscle. I dont think it can contract. What this sounds like are headphones that produce a sound that is 180 degrees out of phase of the gun sound effectively canceling the sound of the blast, to a degree. I have a set of these for when I go flying. David Clarke, Bose and many other companies that make headsets make a version of this for pilots. Makes for preservation of hearing for when we get older. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Originally posted by oren_m: M1A1 TankCommander, I was a gunner in Merkava Mk.2B, and i noticed that the sound of a firing gun from a near by tank is much louder than the tank you shoot from, do you think it has anything with the speed of sound? i mean, could it be that the blast's sound is so fast the you cant hear most of it when you are close to it?No, nothing to do with the speed of sound in that sense. I think it is more a simple matter that the sound wave propogates more to the front and the sides of the muzzle than towards the back. Same thing can happen if someone is speaking to you and turns their back. This is particularly noticeable outdoors where there are no walls or furniture to reflect the sound waves back to your ear. Or could it be that most of the blast's sound is coming out from the main gun, i mean outside the turret and not inside?That may have something to do with it too. Depending on how the gun is designed, it might channel some of the sound back into the turret, but most of the noise is caused by the gasses suddenly expanding out the muzzle. The armor of the turret blocks off a lot of that. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Originally posted by gunnersman: I didnt think the ear drum was anything more than just a membrane and not a muscle. I dont think it can contract.But it's surrounded by muscles. If these contract, they limit the responsiveness of the eardrum to sound waves. This in turn limits the tranmission of energy to the bones of the ear and thus to the nerves of the inner ear. It is these nerves that are damaged by excessive noise. I don't know if the headphones John is describing work or not, but if they do, his explanation for why they do is quite plausible. What this sounds like are headphones that produce a sound that is 180 degrees out of phase of the gun sound effectively canceling the sound of the blast, to a degree.That works fine for continuous noise, such as from an engine. Impulse sounds, like gunfire, effect the hearing differently (for reasons I do not quite understand, unless it has something to do with the phenomenona discussed in the previous paragraph). Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A1TC Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Originally posted by oren_m: And another question, what was your longest shooting range? i mean on a noraml target tank size. Oren_m You mean during a gunnery? Its been awhile, so if I remember correctly, around 2000 meters. In real life, we can kill targets over 3000 meters away Shtora detects the incoming laser, and defeats it, so I can not get a range into the ballistic computer. Then I can put in 1200 meters, which is battle zero range, or use manual optical sight, which sucks goat balls, esp on a move Tank gunnery range in Korea. Targets come up at the base of the hill on the left [ January 01, 2006, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: M1A1TankCommander ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oren_m Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Well, 3000 meters is nice, i fired that range many times also. During my service, me and my crew were chosen to take part in "Tank snipers" training, it lasts 2 weeks which is mostly class time and alot of study, but, in the last 2 days you get to fire some 50 rounds in all the positions. The shortest range was for a turret target at 200 meters, and the longest range was for 6000 meters, i hit the target in the 3'rd round which not too bad! Do you have such kind of a training in the US armored forces? Oren_m 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A1TC Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Not with M1A1 tanks. I never been trained on or seen M1A2 Abrams during my service, so I dont know if they can do that. I know they have longer sight for the thermals, but you still can not visually identify a target at that range. We are trained to ID the target before firing at it I was on M1A1 Abrams while on active duty from 1999-2001, then in National Guard I was on M1 Abrams with 105mm cannon for few years, then I switched to Air Defense Artillery (not by my choice) I am about to switch again to Military Police (Provisional) just for deployment 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatsee Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by gunnersman: I didnt think the ear drum was anything more than just a membrane and not a muscle. I dont think it can contract. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But it's surrounded by muscles. If these contract, they limit the responsiveness of the eardrum to sound waves. This in turn limits the tranmission of energy to the bones of the ear and thus to the nerves of the inner ear. It is these nerves that are damaged by excessive noise. I don't know if the headphones John is describing work or not, but if they do, his explanation for why they do is quite plausible. What muscles? There are no muscles that I know of. Do you have muscles so you can 'squint' your hearing? The eardrum does transmit vibrations to the small bones that in turn send the varying pressure into the cochlea (sp?). THIS then is picked up by the nevrves in the ears. Do tankers open their mouths when firing the main gun? This would equalize the pressure somewhat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A1TC Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 No, I never opened mine. The CVC helmet works pretty good. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oren_m Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Originally posted by Goatsee: Do tankers open their mouths when firing the main gun? This would equalize the pressure somewhat. [/QB]You make it sounds like firing a gun is a living hell, it's just a loud noise, you get used to it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A1TC Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Do you remember the first time the gun went off while you were next to it inside? I scared the crap out of me.. I still remember that, and it was about 8 years ago 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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