Goatsee

Then you don't see so well I can just about promise you that if the US went to war against Syria in mid 2007 (our chosen time) that at least one, probably two, Stryker Brigades would be used. Whatever MGS vehicles in service would, without a question in my mind, be rushed into battle. Ready or not. As it so happens, you have misunderstood the news tidbit that Mikey posted. The initial 72 units will be delivered, in part or in full, by 2007. They've already delivered 2, so each month that number will rise. At a rate of about 4-6 a month they'd have the whole run finished before mid 2007 and therefore in time for CM:SF. In Q4 2007 they expect to go into full production based on lessons learned from the first 72, which themselves will be a progression of improvements (i.e. #72 made will not be the same as #1). Also, a Stryker Brigade has a grand total of 27 MGS (3 per Company, 3 Companies per Battalion, 3 Battalions per Brigade). That means the initial production run, which is due to be completed around the time of CM:SF, is enough to outfit two and a half Brigades. Assuming that some are rejected for frontline service and/or aren't produced, it is near certain that there would be enough MGS vehicles to outfit at least a single Stryker Brigade by the time CM:SF's setting. More likely at least 1.5 Brigades. So... contrary to Goatsee's opinion, we are being extremely logical and level headed about this. I suggest that Goatsee is the one that is not. Steve </font>

There is virtually nothing that anyone can do to stop a IED that is hardwired to a switch and battery. These weapons go back to WWI actually. Another promising technology is this: UNCLASSIFIED FY 2003 Accomplishments: Project approval. FY 2004 Plans: Contract prep/award. Conduct software incorporation into communication devices and platform installation. Test and evaluation, reporting conducted and completed. Training/tech data packages delivered. Production decision/buys. Service FY 2003 FY 2004 FY 2005 Spray Cool TM Counter Targeting System (CTS) Army 1.447 0.105 0.208 This project will evaluate a new technology insertion to enable spiral development of the Counter Targeting System (CTS). CTS utilizes an infra-red (IR) sensor at high frame rates to detect sniper, mortar, RPG, and large caliber weapons fires. This system will assist in near real-time targeting and situational awareness for direct support of combat troops in operations such as Iraq and Afghanistan. If successful, the Spraycool technology will reduce CTS weight of 400+ pounds to less than 100 pounds. First test articles will be field tested in Iraq. Vendor: Isothermal Systems Research (ISR), Inc., Clarkston, WA Program Office of Record: Army Intelligence and Security Command FY 2003 Accomplishments: Project approval. FY 2004 Plans: Contract prep/award. System development/integration. Conduct/complete qualification testing/evaluation. FY 2005 Plans: Tactical assessment. Safety release. Final evaluation report. Procurement Decision. Transition plan.

http://www.onr.navy.mil/about/conferences/rd_partner/2005/docs/past/2003/2003_harp_quick_reaction_special_projects.pdf Quick Reaction Special Projects (Thermobaric hellfire, improved hydra rockets, etc) In December, 2005, the government of Israel accused the government of Syria supplying the Hezbollah terrorist organization with RPG-29 rockets, which were used in an assault on Israeli territory. I think its safe to willy-nilly that Syria has aquired these weapons. New Russian weapons are showing up in Iraq, apparently smuggled across the Syrian border. One of the more dangerous has been the RPG-29. This is a larger version of the widely used RPG-7. With a ten pound launcher firing a 14.7 pound 105mm rocket, the RPG-29 warhead is designed to get past some forms of reactive armor (ERA). The larger weapon (3.3 feet long when carried out, six feet long when ready to fire and 65 percent heavier than the 85mm RPG-7) is more difficult to carry around and fire, but some have been captured, and the damage on some American armored vehicles indicate they were hit by an RPG-29 rocket. The RPG-29 has an effective range of 500 meters. The warhead can also penetrate five feet of reinforced concrete. Both RPG-29s and 27s were developed and entered production just before the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. They are available through legitimate, or black market, arms dealers and are more expensive than the RPG-7 (which is manufactured by many countries.) RPG-29 launchers cost over $500 each, and the rockets for about $300 each. The RPG-27s cost over $500 each. It’s known that many of Saddam’s higher ranking supporters escaped to Syria with a lot of cash. Apparently some of it is being spent on RPG-27s and 29s. Also.. Syria continues to acquire ACW—mainly from Russia and other FSU suppliers—although at a reduced level from the early 1990s. During the past few years, Syria has received Kornet-E (AT-14), Metis-M (AT-13), Konkurs (AT-5), and Bastion-M (AT-10B) antitank guided missiles, RPG-29 rocket launchers, and small arms. Damascus has expressed interest in acquiring Russian Su-27 and MiG-29 fighters and air defense systems, but its outstanding debt to Moscow and inability to fund large purchases have hampered negotiations. [ January 06, 2006, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: Goatsee ]

I wonder if rockets, given the low firing stresses, could have bodies made sintered Aluminum held in an epoxy. In other words, the casing could also be aerobic explosive. My understanding of modern HIT (High Impulse Thermobarics) is that they can be used in traditional HEAT type warheads allowing not only a Hollow charge effect, side fragmentation but also an increased blast effect. They are not just useful within buildings.

http://www.allieddefensegroup.com/other_mecar_reprint.pdf#search='MGS%20firing%20trials' Notice the ammo has a steel cartridge case. Evidently to assist auto loading.

From what I read, the metal particles has to be micron sized. Tests with Nano sized particles yielded no benefit. Making micron sized Aluminum particles would not need a Manhatten Project. Combining this with plastic explosive and refilling rockets could be done. Having many of these going off in rapid succession would be shattering in an area. Simply taking a conventional artillery shell and surrounding it a sleeve filled with aluminum powder might make a frightening booby trap/IED. Having one of these go off in a narrow street or other confined space would be even more devastating.

As far as I know, firing tests for the MGS started in November 2005 and will continue through 2006. The MGS is already too heavy for airlift from some reprts. Its a slow boat load now. Hopefully the tests will be with full bird cage or reactive armor applied and will include side firing on side slopes while moving. Pressing a MGS into usefullness when it has auto-loading problems would be foolish.

Sinfulcurves_AK 02-14-2005 11:42 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RShG-1 (russian thermobaric) http://www.findarticles.com/p/artic...009/ai_n8911890 The latest Russian thermobaric grenade-brought out on 23 July 2001 by the Bazalt Research and Production Center-is an improved variant of the RShG-1. Described as a "Multi- Purpose Rocket Propelled Grenade," the weapon has been listed as having an effective range of 500 meters and a maximum range of 800-1,000 meters. With this revelation, Bazalt may be trying to wring RPG-29 performance levels out of the original RShG-1. The RShG- 1 is based on the RPG-27 LAW (a more powerful evolution of the RPG-26), which fires a 105mm rocket based on the PG-7VR tandem warhead grenade (used in the RPG-7). The PG-- 7VR warhead, which has a punch equivalent to that of a 120mm high-- explosive (HE) mortar or artillery shell, was actually developed in 1988. The Russians now believe it will be a useful antitank weapon out to 2005. (See also "The RPG-7 on the Battlefields of Today and Tomorrow," by Lester W. Grau, Infantry, May-August 1998.) The PG-7VR is also used in the RPG-29, which looks more like a conventional "bazooka" or recoilless rifle than the LAW-series RPGs. The RPG29 can be broken down into two subassemblies carried by the gunner in a special bag. The assistant gunner carries additional grenades and protects the gunner. While fitted with iron sights, the launcher also has both optical day and night sights. In late 1998, the Russians sold the Syrians a shipment of RPG-29 grenade launchers with night sights (as part of a larger arms package). On 20 October 1999 the Russians conducted extensive survivability trials on T-80U and T-90 main battle tanks (MBTs). These tests involved firing large amounts of ordnance (including several versions of RPG ATGL, light and heavy ATGMs, and APFSDS rounds) at the frontal arc of T-80Us and T-90s, with and without Kontakt-V reactive armor (ERA). Three of each type tank were used (one with Kontakt-V ERA, one without the explosive packages, and one reserve vehicle). For the ERA part of the trials, knocked-out ERA packages were replaced after each shot. Each weapon was fired five times at each target, for a total of 20 shots per weapon. The RPG-29 scored a total of three penetrations, while none of the other RPG rounds could penetrate even the stripped target. The RPG-29 also penetrated the T-80U three times with the ERA and all five times without. Of all other grenades, only one PG-7VR penetrated the stripped T-80U target. The RPG-7 using the advanced 4.5kg, 105mm PG-7VR grenade had a penetration of 650mm of rolled homogenous armor (RHA), the RPG-26 disposable LAW had more than 500mm, while the RPG-29 105mm launcher was able to punch through 750mm. The Russians concluded that the RPG-29 was by far the most potent weapon among those tested. It was as powerful as the heavy "Kornet" ATGM and, considering the proliferation of this fairly light infantry weapon, they figured that it had become the most dangerous adversary of modern Russian main battle tanks and a very disturbing development. The RShG- 1 has a small HEAT (high-explosive antitank) precursor to penetrate targets before the 2.3kg thermobaric main charge warhead explodes, making it more useful than the RPO-A against lightly armored vehicles and field fortifications. With tandem warheads, the first charge blows a hole in the target's outer skin (or ERA blocks) for a thermobaric primary warhead to pass through. This provides an armor/concrete penetration capability, allowing the thermobaric charge to be detonated inside the target. Thermobaric weapons contain slow-- burning explosive slurries that keep their explosive impulses on a target longer. Their burning plasma clouds can penetrate even the smallest cracks, and when the slurry is completely consumed, the resulting vacuum causes a massive backblast that crushes everything in the area. These weapons can be extremely dangerous to armored vehicles, as they penetrate engine compartments or vents. Bazalt believes that the RShG-1 has no competitors on the global arms market and, with its excellent sales prospects, may be a weapon U.S. forces must face in the future.

As a bunker buster platform, MGS would take a back seat to a TOW BB.

I am just pointing out that you said early 2007. Thats all. Online means limited production then? Units need to train with equipment. Qualify, etc. I think that is fairly optimistic of you considering the delays so far in MGS. And the MGS has been rushed into acceptance and training/production HAS been rolled together.

Testing is typically done in controlled environments. Data can be collected and analyzed. Is the MGS slated for field trials (Iraq)? I have not heard that they have. More than likely, true testing will reveal the need for redesign of many sub-systems and retrofitting/reprogramming. If the supposed Syrian scenario is to jump-off quickly, it would more than likely involve units in theatre.

The TOW Bunker Buster should also be mentioned as an enhanced warhead. Its chock full of PBXN-109. The stryker TOW vehicle uses this. I met someone that claimed to have been to some covert sniper school. He claimed they were trained on TOW missiles that were modified by filling the hollow cone in the front of the missile with a plastic explosive. This produced a forward moving explosion (in addition to a shaped charge) that ws supposedly useful in taking out high value human targets or groups of people.

But in another thread you said....(regarding fielding weapon systems and time frames..) Obviously. However, if there is no indication that the US military is interested in procuring and fielding in time for CM:SF, then it won't be included. There is no reason to willy nilly include things that are "cool" just because they theoretically could be used. That gets us into a whole new realm of fantasy that we don't want to go anywhere near. So unless there is substantial evidence that a system or munition will be online with the US Army by early 2007, it isn't going to be found in CM:SF </font>

Thermobarics do work on vehicles. Especially since the heat/blast works its way into any opening on vehicles.

Hey! Just move the game to 2008 or 2009! Its all fiction anyway. But my point is that when it comes to certain weapon systems, theres a bias and when it comes to others, theres a gushing acceptance. I am sure Iran and Syria and anyone else that is not chummy with the USA is watching current military reports and buying weapons accordingly.