Goatsee

Then you don't see so well I can just about promise you that if the US went to war against Syria in mid 2007 (our chosen time) that at least one, probably two, Stryker Brigades would be used. Whatever MGS vehicles in service would, without a question in my mind, be rushed into battle. Ready or not. As it so happens, you have misunderstood the news tidbit that Mikey posted. The initial 72 units will be delivered, in part or in full, by 2007. They've already delivered 2, so each month that number will rise. At a rate of about 4-6 a month they'd have the whole run finished before mid 2007 and therefore in time for CM:SF. In Q4 2007 they expect to go into full production based on lessons learned from the first 72, which themselves will be a progression of improvements (i.e. #72 made will not be the same as #1). Also, a Stryker Brigade has a grand total of 27 MGS (3 per Company, 3 Companies per Battalion, 3 Battalions per Brigade). That means the initial production run, which is due to be completed around the time of CM:SF, is enough to outfit two and a half Brigades. Assuming that some are rejected for frontline service and/or aren't produced, it is near certain that there would be enough MGS vehicles to outfit at least a single Stryker Brigade by the time CM:SF's setting. More likely at least 1.5 Brigades. So... contrary to Goatsee's opinion, we are being extremely logical and level headed about this. I suggest that Goatsee is the one that is not. Steve </font>

There is virtually nothing that anyone can do to stop a IED that is hardwired to a switch and battery. These weapons go back to WWI actually. Another promising technology is this: UNCLASSIFIED FY 2003 Accomplishments: Project approval. FY 2004 Plans: Contract prep/award. Conduct software incorporation into communication devices and platform installation. Test and evaluation, reporting conducted and completed. Training/tech data packages delivered. Production decision/buys. Service FY 2003 FY 2004 FY 2005 Spray Cool TM Counter Targeting System (CTS) Army 1.447 0.105 0.208 This project will evaluate a new technology insertion to enable spiral development of the Counter Targeting System (CTS). CTS utilizes an infra-red (IR) sensor at high frame rates to detect sniper, mortar, RPG, and large caliber weapons fires. This system will assist in near real-time targeting and situational awareness for direct support of combat troops in operations such as Iraq and Afghanistan. If successful, the Spraycool technology will reduce CTS weight of 400+ pounds to less than 100 pounds. First test articles will be field tested in Iraq. Vendor: Isothermal Systems Research (ISR), Inc., Clarkston, WA Program Office of Record: Army Intelligence and Security Command FY 2003 Accomplishments: Project approval. FY 2004 Plans: Contract prep/award. System development/integration. Conduct/complete qualification testing/evaluation. FY 2005 Plans: Tactical assessment. Safety release. Final evaluation report. Procurement Decision. Transition plan.

http://www.onr.navy.mil/about/conferences/rd_partner/2005/docs/past/2003/2003_harp_quick_reaction_special_projects.pdf Quick Reaction Special Projects (Thermobaric hellfire, improved hydra rockets, etc) In December, 2005, the government of Israel accused the government of Syria supplying the Hezbollah terrorist organization with RPG-29 rockets, which were used in an assault on Israeli territory. I think its safe to willy-nilly that Syria has aquired these weapons. New Russian weapons are showing up in Iraq, apparently smuggled across the Syrian border. One of the more dangerous has been the RPG-29. This is a larger version of the widely used RPG-7. With a ten pound launcher firing a 14.7 pound 105mm rocket, the RPG-29 warhead is designed to get past some forms of reactive armor (ERA). The larger weapon (3.3 feet long when carried out, six feet long when ready to fire and 65 percent heavier than the 85mm RPG-7) is more difficult to carry around and fire, but some have been captured, and the damage on some American armored vehicles indicate they were hit by an RPG-29 rocket. The RPG-29 has an effective range of 500 meters. The warhead can also penetrate five feet of reinforced concrete. Both RPG-29s and 27s were developed and entered production just before the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. They are available through legitimate, or black market, arms dealers and are more expensive than the RPG-7 (which is manufactured by many countries.) RPG-29 launchers cost over $500 each, and the rockets for about $300 each. The RPG-27s cost over $500 each. It’s known that many of Saddam’s higher ranking supporters escaped to Syria with a lot of cash. Apparently some of it is being spent on RPG-27s and 29s. Also.. Syria continues to acquire ACW—mainly from Russia and other FSU suppliers—although at a reduced level from the early 1990s. During the past few years, Syria has received Kornet-E (AT-14), Metis-M (AT-13), Konkurs (AT-5), and Bastion-M (AT-10B) antitank guided missiles, RPG-29 rocket launchers, and small arms. Damascus has expressed interest in acquiring Russian Su-27 and MiG-29 fighters and air defense systems, but its outstanding debt to Moscow and inability to fund large purchases have hampered negotiations. [ January 06, 2006, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: Goatsee ]

I wonder if rockets, given the low firing stresses, could have bodies made sintered Aluminum held in an epoxy. In other words, the casing could also be aerobic explosive. My understanding of modern HIT (High Impulse Thermobarics) is that they can be used in traditional HEAT type warheads allowing not only a Hollow charge effect, side fragmentation but also an increased blast effect. They are not just useful within buildings.

http://www.allieddefensegroup.com/other_mecar_reprint.pdf#search='MGS%20firing%20trials' Notice the ammo has a steel cartridge case. Evidently to assist auto loading.

From what I read, the metal particles has to be micron sized. Tests with Nano sized particles yielded no benefit. Making micron sized Aluminum particles would not need a Manhatten Project. Combining this with plastic explosive and refilling rockets could be done. Having many of these going off in rapid succession would be shattering in an area. Simply taking a conventional artillery shell and surrounding it a sleeve filled with aluminum powder might make a frightening booby trap/IED. Having one of these go off in a narrow street or other confined space would be even more devastating.

As far as I know, firing tests for the MGS started in November 2005 and will continue through 2006. The MGS is already too heavy for airlift from some reprts. Its a slow boat load now. Hopefully the tests will be with full bird cage or reactive armor applied and will include side firing on side slopes while moving. Pressing a MGS into usefullness when it has auto-loading problems would be foolish.

Sinfulcurves_AK 02-14-2005 11:42 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RShG-1 (russian thermobaric) http://www.findarticles.com/p/artic...009/ai_n8911890 The latest Russian thermobaric grenade-brought out on 23 July 2001 by the Bazalt Research and Production Center-is an improved variant of the RShG-1. Described as a "Multi- Purpose Rocket Propelled Grenade," the weapon has been listed as having an effective range of 500 meters and a maximum range of 800-1,000 meters. With this revelation, Bazalt may be trying to wring RPG-29 performance levels out of the original RShG-1. The RShG- 1 is based on the RPG-27 LAW (a more powerful evolution of the RPG-26), which fires a 105mm rocket based on the PG-7VR tandem warhead grenade (used in the RPG-7). The PG-- 7VR warhead, which has a punch equivalent to that of a 120mm high-- explosive (HE) mortar or artillery shell, was actually developed in 1988. The Russians now believe it will be a useful antitank weapon out to 2005. (See also "The RPG-7 on the Battlefields of Today and Tomorrow," by Lester W. Grau, Infantry, May-August 1998.) The PG-7VR is also used in the RPG-29, which looks more like a conventional "bazooka" or recoilless rifle than the LAW-series RPGs. The RPG29 can be broken down into two subassemblies carried by the gunner in a special bag. The assistant gunner carries additional grenades and protects the gunner. While fitted with iron sights, the launcher also has both optical day and night sights. In late 1998, the Russians sold the Syrians a shipment of RPG-29 grenade launchers with night sights (as part of a larger arms package). On 20 October 1999 the Russians conducted extensive survivability trials on T-80U and T-90 main battle tanks (MBTs). These tests involved firing large amounts of ordnance (including several versions of RPG ATGL, light and heavy ATGMs, and APFSDS rounds) at the frontal arc of T-80Us and T-90s, with and without Kontakt-V reactive armor (ERA). Three of each type tank were used (one with Kontakt-V ERA, one without the explosive packages, and one reserve vehicle). For the ERA part of the trials, knocked-out ERA packages were replaced after each shot. Each weapon was fired five times at each target, for a total of 20 shots per weapon. The RPG-29 scored a total of three penetrations, while none of the other RPG rounds could penetrate even the stripped target. The RPG-29 also penetrated the T-80U three times with the ERA and all five times without. Of all other grenades, only one PG-7VR penetrated the stripped T-80U target. The RPG-7 using the advanced 4.5kg, 105mm PG-7VR grenade had a penetration of 650mm of rolled homogenous armor (RHA), the RPG-26 disposable LAW had more than 500mm, while the RPG-29 105mm launcher was able to punch through 750mm. The Russians concluded that the RPG-29 was by far the most potent weapon among those tested. It was as powerful as the heavy "Kornet" ATGM and, considering the proliferation of this fairly light infantry weapon, they figured that it had become the most dangerous adversary of modern Russian main battle tanks and a very disturbing development. The RShG- 1 has a small HEAT (high-explosive antitank) precursor to penetrate targets before the 2.3kg thermobaric main charge warhead explodes, making it more useful than the RPO-A against lightly armored vehicles and field fortifications. With tandem warheads, the first charge blows a hole in the target's outer skin (or ERA blocks) for a thermobaric primary warhead to pass through. This provides an armor/concrete penetration capability, allowing the thermobaric charge to be detonated inside the target. Thermobaric weapons contain slow-- burning explosive slurries that keep their explosive impulses on a target longer. Their burning plasma clouds can penetrate even the smallest cracks, and when the slurry is completely consumed, the resulting vacuum causes a massive backblast that crushes everything in the area. These weapons can be extremely dangerous to armored vehicles, as they penetrate engine compartments or vents. Bazalt believes that the RShG-1 has no competitors on the global arms market and, with its excellent sales prospects, may be a weapon U.S. forces must face in the future.

As a bunker buster platform, MGS would take a back seat to a TOW BB.

I am just pointing out that you said early 2007. Thats all. Online means limited production then? Units need to train with equipment. Qualify, etc. I think that is fairly optimistic of you considering the delays so far in MGS. And the MGS has been rushed into acceptance and training/production HAS been rolled together.

Testing is typically done in controlled environments. Data can be collected and analyzed. Is the MGS slated for field trials (Iraq)? I have not heard that they have. More than likely, true testing will reveal the need for redesign of many sub-systems and retrofitting/reprogramming. If the supposed Syrian scenario is to jump-off quickly, it would more than likely involve units in theatre.

The TOW Bunker Buster should also be mentioned as an enhanced warhead. Its chock full of PBXN-109. The stryker TOW vehicle uses this. I met someone that claimed to have been to some covert sniper school. He claimed they were trained on TOW missiles that were modified by filling the hollow cone in the front of the missile with a plastic explosive. This produced a forward moving explosion (in addition to a shaped charge) that ws supposedly useful in taking out high value human targets or groups of people.

But in another thread you said....(regarding fielding weapon systems and time frames..) Obviously. However, if there is no indication that the US military is interested in procuring and fielding in time for CM:SF, then it won't be included. There is no reason to willy nilly include things that are "cool" just because they theoretically could be used. That gets us into a whole new realm of fantasy that we don't want to go anywhere near. So unless there is substantial evidence that a system or munition will be online with the US Army by early 2007, it isn't going to be found in CM:SF </font>

Thermobarics do work on vehicles. Especially since the heat/blast works its way into any opening on vehicles.

Hey! Just move the game to 2008 or 2009! Its all fiction anyway. But my point is that when it comes to certain weapon systems, theres a bias and when it comes to others, theres a gushing acceptance. I am sure Iran and Syria and anyone else that is not chummy with the USA is watching current military reports and buying weapons accordingly.

No the report does not say that. It says initial trial vehicles will be tested through the 4th quarter 2007. Initial production DECISION is slated to begin in the fourth quarter then. I am feeling a pro-Stryker sentiment on the behalf of this software company.

But in another thread you said....(regarding fielding weapon systems and time frames..) Obviously. However, if there is no indication that the US military is interested in procuring and fielding in time for CM:SF, then it won't be included. There is no reason to willy nilly include things that are "cool" just because they theoretically could be used. That gets us into a whole new realm of fantasy that we don't want to go anywhere near. So unless there is substantial evidence that a system or munition will be online with the US Army by early 2007, it isn't going to be found in CM:SF [ January 06, 2006, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: Goatsee ]

May be of interest A03-012 TITLE: Remote Sensing of the Electro-Magnetic Potential of the Human Heart TECHNOLOGY AREAS: Biomedical, Sensors OBJECTIVE: Design and build a device that can remotely detect the electronic signature of the beating human heart. The device would be portable, preferably give range and direction of the signal, and be able to work in high electronic noise environments. DESCRIPTION: Advances in electronic signal detection and filtering technology could make it possible to remotely detect the electronic signal given off by the beating human heart. The human heart has a specific electronic signature that could be detected by filtering out the noise using modern electronic filtering technologies. Uses of such a device are numerous. A handheld version could be used by a medic in the field to determine the heart rate of wounded soldiers. By further refining such a device to detect through walls and obstructions, it could be used by soldiers in urban environments to determine how many individuals are in a room that is about to be entered and cleared. The signature could be detected using active doppler radar to sense the movement of the heart. The use of MEMS devices (gyroscopic) could be incorporated into the device in order to minimize the size needed as well as provide a means of canceling the doppler noise effects from the relative movement of the soldier carrying the device. It is expected that the weight of the system be approximately 5 to 10 lbs. and that the sensing range should be between 20 and 50 feet. If the sensing range of the device can be increased, then it could augment other sensing devices such as infrared and light amplification. With a longer range capability, this technology can be used in a telescopic sight on small arms/rifles to detect where enemy soldiers might be hiding. PHASE I: Develop and build a proof-of-principle device using breadboard components that would show that the concept is feasible. PHASE II: Develop and demonstrate a prototype of the human heart sensor. PHASE III DUAL USE APPLICATIONS: For military applications, it is expected that this technology can be incorporated into the gun sight of small arms. Commerciallly, this technology would have applications in the medical industry. It would also have applications in security/police forces for detection and surveillance of individuals. REFERENCES: 1) http://www.biofind.com/business/opportunity_search_details.asp?OpportunityId=110 2) http://www.darpa.mil/DSO/thrust/sp/metaEng/quasar.html 3) E.F. Grenecker, "Radar Sensing of Heartbeat and Respiration at a Distance with Security Applications," Proceedings of SPIE, Radar Sensor Technology II, Volume 3066, Orlando, Florida, pp. 22-27, April, 1997. KEYWORDS: Sensors, electrocardiogram(EKG), remote detection, tracking, surveillance, heart rate, heart rhythm

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/infantry/burk.pdf It will look like the photo in that link Also, the 25mm thermobaric ammo http://www.rdecom.army.mil/rdemagazine/200312/itl_ardec_thermobaric.html This overview shows that the US Military (obviously) is engaging in rapid implementation of technology for its fighting forces (which are fighting in a few places). This shows May 2005. Note that things like slat armor and 40mm thermobarics are specifically mentioned. http://www.jhuapl.edu/aboutapl/events/industry2005/pdf/RDECOM%20Overview%20-%2023%20May%2005.pdf#search='US%20Army%20thermobaric%20weapon%20research' And as far as the market.. Russia continued to be a major supplier of conventional arms. Following Moscow's abrogation of the Gore-Chernomyrdin agreement in November 2000, Russian officials stated that they saw Iran as a significant source of potential revenue from arms sales and believed that Tehran could become Russia's third-largest conventional arms customer after China and India. In 2001, Russia was the primary source of ACW for China, Iran, Libya, and Sudan, and one of the largest sources for India. As an example, Russia actively marketed its thermobaric weapons at international arms shows, which likely increases the availability of this type of weapon in the open market.Russia continued to be the main supplier of technology and equipment to India's and China's naval nuclear propulsion programs. In addition, Russia discussed leasing nuclear-powered attack submarines to India. There is also a second hand market and underground market as well. Also, the fact is that thermobarics are not that difficult to R&D and develop. Reducing Aluminum to micron sized particles and mixing with plastic explosive seems to be a poor man's path. [ January 06, 2006, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: Goatsee ]

Whats so special about 2007? Why not 2008? But I guess that one could also ask "Why Syria?" Will the arms procured and used by Syria be that realm of fantasy that you are comfortable with? You must know that the soviet thermobaric weapons would make Stryker vehicles coffins? Given the state of present world affairs, and the obvious use of the US army/marines throughout 2006 in Iraq (read burn-out), do you really think that Syria/2007 is a realistic battle setting?

Its actually what the military contracts for. Sometimes they will buy off the shelves also. developing a whole new weapon system from scratch should not be compared with refilling ordanance with alternative explosives. And can we assume that the Syria thing will be over in a few months? Why the restriction to 2007? Iraq has been dragging on for awhile. If in fact something like Syria could happen, the military would procure weapons rapidly.

Milkor is a South African company and claims sales of its 40mm systems to 30 countries. They are not under US Contract I beleive and are arms salesmen. Tally (USA): In 2005, Talley (LAW, SMAW) and its Norwegian partner NAMMO Raufoss are developing the so-called "Next-Generation LAW" with three new types of rockets. The M72E8 is a derivative of the M72A7 with an FFE (Fire From Enclosure) propulsion system. This would allow to use the weapon in urban combat. The M72E9 is a high-penetration weapon against modern armour, and the M72E10 has a blast/fragmentation warhead for use as an anti-personnel rocket. The Soviets, as already mentioned, have fielded such systems and used them and presumably sold them also. The Marines are currently evaluating FCT (Foriegn Comparative Tests) of other country's 40mm designs but with the use of IM explosives. Fielding expected 1997. The Marines, and presumably the US Army, are switching to IM explosives (Pax-2a, etc) in many munitions as stocks are aquired.

Some more 40mm improvements to consider: "The HELLHOUND 40mm Low Velocity Multi-Purpose Grenade is a fixed type ammunition designed to be fired from a 40mm Grenade Launcher M79, M203 (attached to the M16/M16A1/M16A2 rifle) or Milkor MK-1/[MGL-140]. The round consists of an A5-filled metal projectile body with a rotating band, a point-initiating-base detonating fuze with Safe and Arm technology, and a cartridge case assembly. Upon impact with the target, the firing pin is driven into the detonator, which in turn initiates the spit back charge, producing a jet which initiates the explosive train from the base forward, resulting in an armor-piercing jet of molten metal and fragmentation of the projectile body. With twice the fill amount of an M433 and a 40% increase in the shrapnel pattern and a lethal diameter out to 10 meters, the HELLHOUND will provide superior performance against both Troops in the Open and MOUT type engagements, while providing superior door-breaching capabilities." An MEI company representative at the company's booth (SOF Week) told DefRev that the HELLHOUND's lethal radius might actually prove to be as much as 12 meters, in the final analysis. This is yet to be confirmed/verified. We'll just have to wait and see. And thermobaric.. The DRACO 40mm Low Velocity Multi-Purpose Grenade is a fixed type ammunition designed to be fired from a 40mm Grenade Launcher M79, M203, (attached to the M16/M16A1/M16A2 rifle) or Milkor MK-1/[MGL-140]. The round consists of an Enhanced Blast Explosive (EBX)-filled metal projectile body with a rotating band, a point-initiating-base detonating fuze with Safe and Arm technology, and a cartridge case assembly. Upon impact with the target, the firing pin is driven in to the detonator, which in turn initiates the spit back charge, producing a jet which initiates the explosive train from the base forward, resulting in an armor-piercing jet of molten metal and fragment pattern and the Thermobaric effect of the EBX compound, the DRACO will provide superior performance against both Troops in the Open and MOUT type engagements." This rear detonated round appears to combine a hollow-charge effect with a thermobaric enhanced blast. From... http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_MGL,,00.html?ESRC=soldiertech.nl

There is also improvements planned for the old LAW type system using upgraded explosives. Something like PAX-3 will allow a LAW rocket to retain/improve its role as LATW while increasing its blast so that it becomes a bunker buster of sorts. I believe PAX-3 is just HMX type explosive that has Aluminum or other metalized explosive optimized in particle size so that it is also a thermobaric type of explosion. So any squad with one of these can assault close enough to a building and put a rocket into a window/door/etc. When attacking armor, the increased blast/heat can further damage subsystems if the vehicle is not destroyed by the hollow charge effect. I suppose even the M1 tank shaped charge round can also benefit from this dual capability. Developing a mortar round that can penetrate roofs and detonate within buildings could also benefit from thermobaric technology. The bottom line is that any game that dipicts warfare between modern forces set in the near future must recognize the ongoing revolution in explosive development. Actually, the soviets had this revolution 20 years ago. So any force that can be supplied by them might have this capability. [ January 03, 2006, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Goatsee ]

An interesting result of a US study was that if an attacking force had these weapons, they were greatly favored over defenders. But if BOTH attacker AND defender had them, the defender is greatly favored. I would assume that the defender could pick building targets aas marked 'death-traps'. A good overview here http://www.defence.gov.au/dpe/dhs/infocentre/publications/journals/NoIDs/adfhealth_apr03/ADFHealth_4_1_03-06.pdf [ January 02, 2006, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Goatsee ]