Huntarr Posted August 5, 2007 Author Share Posted August 5, 2007 Originally posted by panzermartin: The wonderful new finer terrain mesh is virtually useless in CMSF. Ditches and ground depressions that should provide cover and concealment to infantry are not taken into account. I had men crawling in a very deep ditch and yet they were spotted by infantry 100m away and got shot to pieces through solid ground. Sorry to repeat myself but I dont see many mentioning this and imo its far more annoying than pathfinding, which can be temporarily taken care with more babysitting. I know all the little and not so little bugs will be solved after a couple of patches but this seems as an engine problem. There can be no fun in infantry battles with 1:1 and these LOS/LOF abstractions. I try to play smaller scale battles tha fit better in the CMSF system only to find out that these are unplayable if a mountain or wall is eliminating your small force out of nowhere. Company of Heroes has the same problems with LOS/LOF but you never notice since it is a classic RTS. But CM? In CM all the game is build around who sees and fires first while micromanaging your pixel troops in accuracy of few centimeters. Also, many times Target tool reports no LOS on perfectly flat terrain smth like random invisible walls blocking the view. The core desing and philosophy of the game is excellent and definetely BFC are on the right track with CMSF, but you just cant ignore this problem, its fundamental and not a harmless engine abstraction. [ August 05, 2007, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Huntarr ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf66 Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 Now it seems we have fighting in Syria with an engine and rules/explanations that would have better suited the "Space Lobsters of Doom" game ..... I feel like when I was a little boy and somehow figured out that there was no Santa Claus ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntarr Posted August 5, 2007 Author Share Posted August 5, 2007 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: There are some bugs, for sure, and we are looking into getting them fixed as a priority. However, there will continue to be some LOS/LOF abstractions forever. None of us have computers powerful enough to run without such abstractions. There are far less abstractions than CMx1, but they are now more noticable because of the 1:1 graphical repersentation. So from our position, if CMx1 was fun despite the much greater degree of abstraction, CMx2 should be more fun because it has less abstraction. However, fun is a relative term and it is highly personalized, therefore nobody can say "this game is not fun with it" just as I can't say "this game is fun with it" and have it mean anything beyond our personal preferences. Steve Thanks Steve, Can we get a definite yes or no that terrain such as a berm or trench are giving better cover then say the brush? [ August 05, 2007, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Huntarr ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntarr Posted August 5, 2007 Author Share Posted August 5, 2007 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: Walls have been a problem for us since the very early days. I do not understand why that is, but then again I am not a programmer! Shooting through walls is definitely a bug that can be fixed, but shooting through the very ends of a wall (i.e. where it stops) might have to remain for a lot longer. This is usually only noticable when angles are just "right". Charles says the work aound for this problem is code intensive and we have other things we must do first. Yes, you should be able to hid units behind walls. There does appear to be a problem with this, but it is likely the same one that allows some shooting through walls. The LOF calculations require successful LOS first. Yes, there are some abstractions with "damage" that take into account some of the abstractions. CM's code considers your pixel warriors as having better cover and better spacing than they appear to on the screen. Therefore, if there are trees available for protection there is an assumption that your soldiers are using them to the best of their ability even if the graphics do not show this. The high lethality you're finidng COULD be the result of one or more bugs, but could also just as easily be differences in expectations between what x,y, and z do in CMx1 compared to what x, y, and z do in CMx2. I've seen testers complete some of the most difficult battles, using Elite mode, that you guys are getting slaughtered in. I've been trying to summon up the energy and time to write a small article about this to help people make some mental transitions to the new environment. I really must do that because I think it will prove helpful to you guys. As soon as v1.02 is out the door I'll make writing up a short article for you guys a priority. Steve [ August 05, 2007, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Huntarr ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 The high lethality you're finidng COULD be the result of one or more bugs... with all respect, it wont come from my inability to play the game. when i get slaughtered becouse i planed out crap i dont come here whining about LOS, short said. I've been trying to summon up the energy and time to write a small article about this to help people make some mental transitions to the new environment. I really must do that because I think it will prove helpful to you guys. that would shed light into some dark spots. thanks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 A gamey trick these wall problems make possible (this is from v1.02): Often when your infantry jumps out of vehicles near the enemy you get many casualties before they manage to run into the nearest building. When a Stryker was moving between buildings I noticed sometimes parts of it were inside the building. So I decided to try if there's a way to dismount without casualties. Reversed the Stryker inside the building and then told the infantry to jump out http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z213/r31070021/CMSF/stryker_dismount.gif 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntarr Posted August 11, 2007 Author Share Posted August 11, 2007 You rule Slowmo! I love it. We'll just call this one the Stryker Combat Engineering kit that wasn't implemented. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger bullet Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 Nice, Slow mo, talk about a penetrating rear entry. Wait, nevermind. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steiner14 Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 Originally posted by SlowMotion: A gamey trick these wall problems make possible (this is from v1.02): Often when your infantry jumps out of vehicles near the enemy you get many casualties before they manage to run into the nearest building. When a Stryker was moving between buildings I noticed sometimes parts of it were inside the building. So I decided to try if there's a way to dismount without casualties. Reversed the Stryker inside the building and then told the infantry to jump out http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z213/r31070021/CMSF/stryker_dismount.gif :eek: But therefore we have now a 1:1 soldier representation down to single bullets... A tactical simulation obviously must set priorities... :mad: :mad: :mad: Knowing about such facts reduces my wish to start a new SF-battle to almost zero. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenowl Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 What I notice is I can not manually target because it blocks the LOS. However, the computer on both sides does not see or interact with the walls. So both sides will shoot through the wall. The best example I have seen is on house cleaning and taking a squad along the right hand edge. I could do a bit more research to see if it only applies to units on different terrain/building levels. It seems the units at the same base level can not interact in a meaningful way, but the units at different levels can, even when LOS is blocked. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Reality Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 I too have had a LOS issue. I started one of the single battles and 3 of my strykers were instantly taken out. I found the culprits to be a couple of T55s that were a whole map side away to my right, and behind a building and trees.I locked onto one of the T55s and lowered my camera to his turret level and there was noway he could see my stykers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 Here is a strange thing I noticed while testing ATGMs. The test map had one 8 story building. In seventh floor there were balconies to two directions. In setup phase I moved a Syrian ATGM team to this seventh floor and then gave Face command so that they would move to a balcony. Two members of the team did go to the balcony, the rest to ground level outside the building. Once I started playing this I chose an area target for the team about 300m away. At this point things looked like this (notice how LOF starts from the 5th floor, not from the balcony). http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z213/r31070021/CMSF/balcony_target_line.gif The team couldn't use missiles from the balcony so a team member decided to use his assault rifle instead. This caused the enemy spot the team. Soon one of the enemy ATGM Strykers launched a TOW missile which destroyed the 2 soldiers on the balcony. If you look at this second picture, there's something interesting in it as well. If the damage to the wall shows where the TOW missile hit, this is in the 5th floor - where the LOF started, not where the team really is. Two dead bodies are in the 7th floor balcony. http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z213/r31070021/CMSF/balcony_after_enemy_tow_missile.gif 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewood Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 Looks like the game is trying to compensate for the individual squaddies being spread out. Almost like an average or center point of the individuals in the squad. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 I guess so. If you calculate average floor (2x7 + 1x1)/3 = 5. But why did this one team member go to ground floor and not to the 7th floor behind the balcony? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewood Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 Afraid of heights? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 Maybe. Those soldiers might have a value that tells how well they fight in high buildings, like vehicles have Off-Road capability. Just not enough room in the Detail Panel to show this value. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 Check out this LOS problem. My Stryker can only see a few dozen yards down a completely clear road before LOS is inexplicably blocked. Ridiculous! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 also fits into that thread. the new smoke is rather extreme, as i mentioned somewhere else. just one stryker poped smoke(the blue question mark near the wall...), after the smoke had drifted to may main group i saw this ... -> a stryker in smokeless area 10meters in front of my BMP and squad(wich got waxed later thats why there is no marker in the replay), no sight, no sound contact. i just saw the dust passing by. 15 or 20 seconds later, suddenly all 4 strykers appear out of the blue... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzermartin Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 lol..this is a straight rip off from some cheap metal concert. Smokes and then the band appears out of nowhere. Well BMPS cant see a thing anyway. In the same scenario I had the commander exposed for a better view and he couldnt spot a stryker 5m in front of him. How can a buttoned up stryker see better than a human? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 Looking at that "stryker in smokeless area 10meters" I really wonder how much sound contacts matter in this new relative spotting system. I would think you can hear a moving tank at least several hundreds of meters away. And much further in good conditions. At least when the listening tank commander is buttoned up. Now you usually see just a dust cloud moving, but no sound contact. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 becouse off all the super optics and stuff only problem is that it feels like the super optics are looking everywhere at the same time..you come from the side, bad look he allready saw you...from the other side...the same. also they can X ray trenches OR the infantry is to stupid to hide...dunno whats the reason for that. lol..this is a straight rip off from some cheap metal concert. Smokes and then the band appears out of nowhere. i didnt thougth like that but thats agood way to put it 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewood Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 A lot of these problems sound very familiar to anyone who has TOW. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntarr Posted August 13, 2007 Author Share Posted August 13, 2007 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: Thanks for the info guys. We're trying to clean up PBEM right now (mostly done, I think) and we'll get to the LOS/LOF problem soon. Definitely for v1.03, which we have on a fast track like v1.02. This is a problem that needs to be fixed, but fortunately it is not a fundamental problem that can't be addressed. It's a bug, plain and simple. It will be fixed, plain and simple. And soon too Steve Thanks Steve, We really do appreciate the fire drill mode you guys are in now. I hope that we continue to provide constructive issues for you and your team to address. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 I hope that we continue to provide constructive issues for you and your team to address. sure we do 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 How can a buttoned up stryker see better than a human?Money CAN sometimes buy stuff Strykers are outfitted with optics that are far superior to what some joe can see with his bare eyes, or with binoculars. The thermals help out a huge amount, allowing them to see at night and through smoke. They can also use the zoom in the camera to get a fairly high resolution closeup of things of interest. Vehicles equipped with FS3 can see things AND have them identified by heat sig out to 5km at night and 10km during the day. It's amazing stuff and it does give an edge. The Syrian stuff, on the other hand, is generally outfitted with nothing but WWII style vision blocks. On top of that, Soviet design philosophies over the years have consistently downplayed the importance of crew comfort and crew situational awareness. There are blind spots sometimes, ergonomically difficult to use devices in others. In other words, they not only lack fancy gizmos, but they also lack the basics for the old Mk 1 Eyeball. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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