Are we all playing the same game??

[Huntarr]

Originally posted by GreenAsJade:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> We all loved WE-GO back in the day because it replaced turn based, which was a serious snore after awhile. Back then the thought of both sides "shooting at the same time" was revolutionary. Give RT an honest try, you may actually like it.

RT and WEGO are two different kinds of game.

It is definitely not the case (IMHO) that "RT is the next evolution from counters after WEGO".

Rather, they are forks in the road.

WEGO is all about strategy and tactics.

RT is about "realism" at an individual commander level ... decisions on the fly and all that good stuff.

Neither is truly realistic ... commanders don't get to issue commands for many different platoons in real time like we do in CMSF RT, nor do they have hours to plan each minute, like we do in CMSF WEGO.

Rather, each approximates some sort of realism that we find enjoyable to *play*.

Saying that WEGO gamers might enjoy RT is like saying basketball players might enjoy baseball. Sure - they might. They're sportsmen, afterall. But basketball players are likely to want to keep playing basketball.

Similarly, tactical/strategic wargamers are likely to want to keep playing WEGO.

GaJ </font>

[GreenAsJade]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

(stuff that's new/different etc)

WeGoers would like to think, it would seem, that the core RealTime based engine is at fault for this or that. It isn't. They also might like to think that WeGo doesn't benefit from a RealTime engine.

Can we not refer to "Wegoers" as a whole as the people who are whining about the RT engine? It pulls me and a lot of other fine folk into the group you think has no clue or appreciation of what is there.

What there is out there is a stoopid "blue bar brigade" : I think these are the people (the person?) you are referring to.

Actually, most tactical/strategic players are probably quite happy with the fundamentals of the new WEGO implementation, and do appreciate the new features the engine brings (or would if they were aware of them).

There are some serious bugs and limitations right now, and so the complaints about those I'm sure are taken in the right spirit: these need fixing (like multiple movable waypoints, self-preservation, rewind properly etc) in due course.

That's different from saying "WEGO on an RT engine is broken, give me a blue bar".

So there you have it. A new engine that benefits both WeGo and RealTime players. Are both sides happy with all the decisions we made? No, obviously not. But we're moving forward on evolving both halves of the game for the next bunch of years. WeGo will never be replaced by RealTime.

Yay

GaJ

[ August 07, 2007, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: GreenAsJade ]

[Battlefront.com]

GaJ,

Can we not refer to "Wegoers" as a whole as the people who are whining about the RT engine? It pulls me and a lot of other fine folk into the group you think has no clue or appreciation of what is there.

It is really hard to make any sort of post here that can cover any topic without it being a generalized comment. Sometimes I don't choose my words carefully enough to reflect my understanding of that. Sorry!

What there is out there is a stoopid "blue bar brigade" : I think these are the people (the person?) you are referring to.

Those folks and the others complaining about this or that thing. Some have got non-WeGo features confused into the debate because they really mean CMx1 stuff, not WeGo. Still others think that we're killing off WeGo, though I've said the opposite many times. Some even think that various design decisions were made to accomodate RealTime when in fact they were simply design decisions to improve both. So on and so forth. The Blue Bar Brigade (that's fun to say! ) are some of the less rational minded about the whole game experience, but they are not the only ones who come off sounding rather close minded..

Actually, most tactical/strategic players are probably quite happy with the fundamentals of the new WEGO implementation, and do appreciate the new features the engine brings (or would if they were aware of them).

I hope so

There are some serious bugs and limitations right now, and so the complaints about those I'm sure are taken in the right spirit: these need fixing (like multiple movable waypoints, self-preservation, rewind properly etc) in due course.

Yup. As we have pointed out, CMBO was released something like 6 months after the Beta Demo and yet we still had to patch it 12 times before we considered it "good enough". Well, until we made CMBB, which moved the engine along further and ticked off a lot of people in the process.

That's different from saying "WEGO on an RT engine is broken, give me a blue bar".

Very true, and it is nice to start talking about real issues with the WeGo implementation instead of the near hysteria that was seen in the first few days. Talking about issues of substance is always a good thing, wasting energy on the "Chicken Littles" is never useful (sheesh! I can't believe this is the first time I've used that phrase for CM:SF. I used it a LOT right after CMBB came out IIRC).

Steve

[metalbrew]

Originally posted by FaxisAxis:

ahh, poor stirling doesn't like the game, because he can't get it running right and its not realistic enough for him. Then go shoot yourself in the foot punk!

You are an idiot.

[Battlefront.com]

Boyz (I presume), let's keep it civil and productive.

Steve

[rcg92]

Originally posted by The_Capt:

You know that scene in the second Pirates of the Caribbean where the really old crewman on the Jolly Roger (I think that was its name)

I think the name of the ship was the Flying Dutchman and the name of that pirate flag with the skull and crossbones is the Jolley Roger, but I could be wrong.

As far as the new real time goes I like having it as long as both WEGO and realtime are options. Real time is great for tiny battles where you control one platoon, or maybe even a company. Anything bigger than that and I can't handle it. I can see RT being good for using on a special forces campaign

[Rastakyle]

Originally posted by Stirling:

Sorry, but if you haven't seen any major bugs, then you haven't played the game ten hours. Or ten minutes.

And real-time is not more realistic. Not by a long shot.

Not sure I get you here. Are you proposing time freezing while a commander spends all the time in the world thinking about what to do next in an intense firefight more arcurately represents reality?

[Thomm]

Boy, I wish those pointless, pseudo-religious discussions would stop! Neither mode is realistic, and as long as there is no objective measure for realism (and there is none as far as I know) this discussion boils down to opinions, and will lead nowhere, as it led nowhere in the last 10 years!

Best regards,

Thomm

[metalbrew]

Originally posted by Rastakyle:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Stirling:

Sorry, but if you haven't seen any major bugs, then you haven't played the game ten hours. Or ten minutes.

And real-time is not more realistic. Not by a long shot.

Not sure I get you here. Are you proposing time freezing while a commander spends all the time in the world thinking about what to do next in an intense firefight more arcurately represents reality? </font>

[molotov_billy]

Originally posted by Rastakyle:

Not sure I get you here. Are you proposing time freezing while a commander spends all the time in the world thinking about what to do next in an intense firefight more arcurately represents reality?

You're actually playing more than just the overall commander. You're controlling every squad and section leader in the game - telling them which way to face, what targets to fire at, how much ammo to take from that stryker, etc.

The issues with tactical AI make it a fair bit worse than that, too. You tend to have to babysit units far more than a battalion commander, platoon, or even squad leader would ever have to.

Neither option is really all that realistic. However, pausing is certainly required if you want to give an adequate number of orders to anything above platoon size. Coordination, especially, goes out the window. Ordering your units one at a time will just get them shot up, piecemeal - the player isn't capable of mimicking realistic tactics without a pause feature.

[Rastakyle]

Originally posted by metalbrew:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rastakyle:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Stirling:

Sorry, but if you haven't seen any major bugs, then you haven't played the game ten hours. Or ten minutes.

And real-time is not more realistic. Not by a long shot.

Not sure I get you here. Are you proposing time freezing while a commander spends all the time in the world thinking about what to do next in an intense firefight more arcurately represents reality? </font>

[jomni]

Originally posted by Rollstoy:

Boy, I wish those pointless, pseudo-religious discussions would stop! Neither mode is realistic, and as long as there is no objective measure for realism (and there is none as far as I know) this discussion boils down to opinions, and will lead nowhere, as it led nowhere in the last 10 years!

Best regards,

Thomm

Combat Mission, no matter if it is WEGO or RT is not realistic because in real life, you can't play several roles at the same time. You cannot be the Task Force Commander + Tank Driver + Squad Leader at the same time.

If you want to deal with strategy and be a Task Force Commander, you will holed up in a bunker looking at maps and waiting for SITREPS. You will not see the battle taking place in the front first hand. So play POA2 instead for a realistic commander experience.

If you want to drive vehicles, the most realistic experience is playing a tank sim like Steal Beasts.

If you want to be a squad leader and be in the front lines, play Full Spectrum Warrior or any other 1st person shooter.

Combat Mission (even the CMx1) puts you in all these perspectives and it will never be realistic that way. So there's no point in arguing realism to the most minute detail.

[Thomm]

Side-note: I think it is very valuable for RT players to keep WeGo in and have critical people play WeGo, because the demands on the TacAI are much higher in WeGo mode and the improvements there will spill over as improvements in RT!

Best regards,

Thomm