Arabic Language Grog Question

[Zalgiris 1410]

Of course all monotheastic religions start out declaring that their god is the greatest, above and beyond all others, therefore the eptimology of Allah is the Greatest (however it is writen in Arabic, re: Saudi flag if required) is actually probably correct, orrigionally. BTW the land of milk and honey was also the land of Elohim and not just of Yaweh, hehe.

O'h who's a jolly bloody little athiest, o'h yes, o'h yes, o'h yes it's me 1, 2, 3.

[V]

Originally posted by Shmavis:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by V:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Preserved Killick:

Technically, I believe, it means "greatest God", but is often translated idiomatically as "God is great".

The problem with that is that to say 'greatest God' implies that there is another god or gods besides Allah (swt) which is a big no-no to Muslims. Which I am sure you know, but I'm just trying to justify uping my post count.

</font>

[Madmatt]

To answer your question... Umm, I don't know yet.

Aquiring accurate language info and voice actors for the OPFOR in CMSF is going to be a challenge to be sure. Any one that has any relevant info or natively speaks the needed languages (we got English covered thanks!) should contact me directly if they want to help out.

Madmatt

[V]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

Any one that has any relevant info or natively speaks the needed languages (we got English covered thanks!) should contact me directly if they want to help out.

Madmatt

What about Ebonics?

Will there be Hispanic accents in some American forces?

Grogs want to know.

[C'Rogers]

By the way, with all the talk about Allah, I don't think that the Druz and Christian Syrians(among other denominations) should be forgotten.

Everyone in the Middle East isn't a diehard Muslim? Craziness I say! Next thing you will be trying to say is that there are common conflicts between religious groups or some such nonsense.

Seriously though if BFC implements this what would all the game haters complain about? If they can't allege the game is a simple marketing ploy by BFC to sell games to the teen market to kill Muslims, what will they complain about?

[Shmavis]

Originally posted by V:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Shmavis:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by V:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Preserved Killick:

Technically, I believe, it means "greatest God", but is often translated idiomatically as "God is great".

The problem with that is that to say 'greatest God' implies that there is another god or gods besides Allah (swt) which is a big no-no to Muslims. Which I am sure you know, but I'm just trying to justify uping my post count.

</font>

[Hans]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

To answer your question... Umm, I don't know yet.

Aquiring accurate language info and voice actors for the OPFOR in CMSF is going to be a challenge to be sure. Any one that has any relevant info or natively speaks the needed languages (we got English covered thanks!) should contact me directly if they want to help out.

Madmatt

Madmatt

I work with a number of Syrians (a few have been in the Syrian Army also) Let me know if you need assistance. I also know the Syrian Ambassador to the UAE and have a source to find as many voices as you might like - particularly if you want to vary the regional dialects - Syrians women and children's voices would also be available

Hans in the Middle East

[Peter Cairns]

What about "Rozan Kabar"

That's what the guy who used to turn in to animals in the arabian nights cartoon in the Banana splits TV show used to say.

Don't know what it means but I'd put it in for a laugh.

Peter.

[V]

Originally posted by Shmavis:

Isn't that the same thing, basically? I'll ask my wife for an exact translation. [/QB]

Probably. Let us know.

[Zitadelle]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

To answer your question... Umm, I don't know yet.

Aquiring accurate language info and voice actors for the OPFOR in CMSF is going to be a challenge to be sure. Any one that has any relevant info or natively speaks the needed languages (we got English covered thanks!) should contact me directly if they want to help out.

Madmatt

Thanks for the answer- and a break from all the irrelevant chatter.

[Peter Cairns]

(we got English covered thanks)...

should that be "we have English covered thankyou".

Peter.

[Hertston]

Originally posted by Hans:

I also know the Syrian Ambassador to the UAE and have a source to find as many voices as you might like - particularly if you want to vary the regional dialects - Syrians women and children's voices would also be available

Just as long as nobody in Syria recognises them :eek:

I somehow doubt this puppy will be on Bashar al-Asad's birthday present list...

[V]

Originally posted by Hertston:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hans:

I also know the Syrian Ambassador to the UAE and have a source to find as many voices as you might like - particularly if you want to vary the regional dialects - Syrians women and children's voices would also be available

Just as long as nobody in Syria recognises them :eek:

I somehow doubt this puppy will be on Bashar al-Asad's birthday present list... </font>

[Stavka_lite]

Allahu Akbar means God is Great, Breaking it down, if my college Arabic holds up, Lah is the term for God. Al is the definitive hence Allah means the The God or One God, akbar means Great. So the term Allahu Akbar literally means God is Great. I think the statement is actually Allahu alakbar

One term I heard on CNN during GW1 that really got my attention was when an Iraqi was surrendering nad he was saying Allah imteehan'naa or God has tested, or, humiliated us.

[konstantine]

Stavka, you are basically correct; however, Allahu Akbar is not a nominal sentence. It is a comparative, or I suppose idiomatically superlative. The literal translation "God is great" would technically require a nominal sentence, which would mean Akbarun as opposed to Akbar. So far as classical Arabic is concerned.

[Stavka_lite]

P. Killick. Shukran! During my Arabic classes all those years ago my professors were constantly reminding us that Arabic, like English, was full of exceptions and slang. Once I finish up this PhD I am think about going back and re-learning Arabic. I think it is a language and culture that could be (he states with some trepidation) re-emergent.

[konstantine]

My pleasure sir. And certainly, Arabic is as colorful and idiomatic a language as they come. My comments are really only relevant (to my knowledge) to classical, or Qur'anic Arabic.

My erstwhile Arabic prof likened the language to crystal structure, due to the rendering of all words (ok, most) from tri-consonant roots, and its wide and diverse range of dialects. The interesting thing is, learning classical Arabic is kind of like learning a lingua franca (although not as good as Saudi or Egyptiam--or as my prof called them, "TV" Arabic). Most Arabic speakers are practising Muslims, of course, and thus most of them have heard the Qur'an read from a very young age, which is written in classical Arabic.

However, one of my former classmates (a Pakistani) told me that going around speaking classical Arabic in the Middle East would be like talking to people here (i.e. North America) in Old King James English with a posh UK accent.

[nijis]

Arabic groggery:

Arabic's not just filled with exceptions, it's all exceptions. Instructors just pretend there's grammatical rules. This horrible realization starts to dawn on you once they start talking about Form XII verbs and quadrilaterals.

Your Pakistani colleague's analogy is pretty good. Hardly anyone ever uses nunation in ordinary speech, not even when quoting Quran, except for little vestigial fragments that crop up here and there. I think the "hu" in "Allahu" might be one of those fragments, basically just a bridging sound. I can't believe they still force Arabic students to nunate.

Re the precise meaning of "Allahu Akbar," I asked around and was told that the understood meaning is "God is greater," as in "greater than the enemy." You might shout it when you're on the attack, or when a foe begins to waiver. With the call to prayer, I've heard that the meaning is "God is more important than whatever you happen to be doing right now."

Re, the relationship between the name "Allah" and the generic word for "god," my Hans Wehr gives the generic as ilah, root being alef lam heh as opposed to just lam heh. Maybe "Allah" maybe started off as al-Ilah but some time in pre-Islamic Arabic got contracted. There's also an Arabic name, Abd il-Ilah which means "Servant of the [one] god" as distinct from Abdullah, "Servant of God."

CM Arabic

Here's some other things Iraqis tell me that they might say in stressful situations. I expect that Syrian oaths and exclamations would not be that different.

Tawakalna 'ala Allah -- In God we trust, roughly. You'd probably chant it softly and repeatedly as often as shout it aloud. Same goes for Allahu Akbar, btw. I've seen pretty chilling Iraqi insurgent footage of an IED ambush where the filmmakers' muffled chanting of ''allahu akbar'' increases in volume and tempo as the Humvee gets close to the hidden bomb, then breaks into shouting when it goes off.

Ya Ibna al-Kalb, Ya Ibna al-'Ars -- Sons of dogs, sons of pimps (not sure why dog and pimp are in the singular and take the definite article). I once heard a Mahdi Army fighter shouting the former as he brandished the sole of his shoe at the Americans. Might make for a good animation.

Ya Hafez -- ''Protector.'' Supposedly it's what Iraqis are most likely to say when a bomb goes off nearby.

[ October 17, 2005, 03:16 AM: Message edited by: nijis ]

[Zalgiris 1410]

Originally posted by nijis:

Arabic groggery:

Re the precise meaning of "Allahu Akbar," I asked around and was told that the understood meaning is "God is greater," as in "greater than the enemy." You might shout it when you're on the attack, or when a foe begins to waiver. With the call to prayer, I've heard that the meaning is "God is more important than whatever you happen to be doing right now."

Re, the relationship between the name "Allah" and the generic word for "god," my Hans Wehr gives the generic as ilah, root being alef lam heh as opposed to just lam heh. Maybe "Allah" maybe started off as al-Ilah but some time in pre-Islamic Arabic got contracted. There's also an Arabic name, Abd il-Ilah which means "Servant of the [one] god" as distinct from Abdullah, "Servant of God."

That's what I was referring to somewhat disparagingly in this thread, not that I know anything about nunation in Arabic to be sure!

definate singular or one God (who) is greater or greatest in a comparative sense to something else or in relation to other Gods, maybe.

Now what's the real historical importance to be made of the evident eptimological distiction between the meaning of 'servert of just god', and 'servent of the (one) God'? Which came first just god or The (one) God?

[konstantine]

Oh yeah, verb form declensions were my favorite. :/

Anyway, regarding the al-Ilah contraction, from what I was taught elision is very common in Arabic, so I would suspect that Zalgiris is correct.

With regards to the theology of the One, or Just, or Greatest God as implied by the statement God is Greatest or God is Greater, two things should be kept in mind:

1. Islam is not technically henotheistic, as Judaism for example likely started out as. Doctrinal monotheism was fairly well established in the Mediterranean and near East by this point. So the explanation that Allahu-Akbar implies that Allah is greater than one's enemy (as opposed to his god) seems the most reasonable. However, in antiquity, it is unlikely that strict monotheism was practiced by the majority of adherents of a monotheistic religion. Moreover, one doesn't necessarily need to accept the existence of another's deity in order to refute it.

2. Not long after the death of Muhammad came the denominational split into the Shiite and Sunni Islams. The early history of Islam is the history of conflict and conquest. So the cry Allahu-Akbar is probably linked to the ideal that Allah himself is on the Muslim side that is most just, or that a just Allah could only support one's own particular brand of Muslim ideology.

Good discussion by the way.

nijis: with regard to nunation, I was taught classical Arabic, not any modern idiom. The Qur'an, as do many classical texts, retains nunation (and diacriticals) as it is believed to be sacred, a representation of Allah on this earth (and therefore cannot be altered by humankind). Therefore in order to read it, or classical texts such as the Hadith, nunation should be learned.

I plan to learn a modern dialect very soon however. Probably Saudi.

Sorry to blather on, but this stuff is really interesting!

[konstantine]

just to clarify, another reason that the Qur'an retains nunation is because in the formation period of Islam, there were a lot of "heretics" espousing differing interpretations of the work. What was at stake was subtle or at times drastic alternate readings of specific passages due to the lack of diacritical marks (i.e. vowelisation). So a bunch of clerics got together in Damascus (iirc, I forget when) and came up with the orthodox version of the Qur'an. Of course, there are still very rare heterodox variants floating around (tough to find, as they are buried in sacred sites, called paper graves iirc).

Ok, I'll shut up now.

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by Preserved Killick:

With regards to the theology of the One, or Just, or Greatest God as implied by the statement God is Greatest or God is Greater, two things should be kept in mind:

1. Islam is not technically henotheistic, as Judaism for example likely started out as. Doctrinal monotheism was fairly well established in the Mediterranean and near East by this point. So the explanation that Allahu-Akbar implies that Allah is greater than one's enemy (as opposed to his god) seems the most reasonable. However, in antiquity, it is unlikely that strict monotheism was practiced by the majority of adherents of a monotheistic religion. Moreover, one doesn't necessarily need to accept the existence of another's deity in order to refute it.

[snip]

I would second this point - unlike Judaism, Islam was always strictly monotheistic and flatly rejected the existence of any other god(s)...that's pretty much the point of the tahlil (i.e., there is no god but allah...). Also unlike Judaism, which developed slowly and was only later written down, Islam was created (born, revealed, etc.) all at once, and was written down pretty much immediately.

[Zalgiris 1410]

Islam began and was always strictly monotheistic orrigionally from the very first or so you might think but...why did the Great Prophet's 'Muhammadins' exactly just need to go on that very first Jihad to take control of Medina in 630?

AIUI Muhammed started to promulgate his prophetic revelation in the Qur'an while in Mecca from about 610, however the Meccan authorities or notables or somefink were opposed (religiously amoung other reasons of State) to him and it became neccessary to leave with his small band of dedicated follows after 12 years, hence the Hijra to Medina in 622.

What was in Mecca that was so important and why didn't Medina just do as the Holist of places. The Kaaba, the most important religious traditional (pagan) object of devotion in that whole region which Islam has adopted and continues with as its most significant means of expressing devout devotion, with the hajj pilgrimage. The actual act of walking 7 times around the Kaaba during the Hajj is also more than likely an adoption of the orrigional pagan tradition, that is it was pre-Islamic and occurring at the sametime while Muhammed was residing in Mecca and beginning to author the Qur'an!

These pagan traditional attributes incorporated into Islam by Muhammed (I'm assuming) have been admitted or conceed to in some circles of serious Islamic academia even by respectable (in one case that I'm aware of female) Arab Muslims to be sure.

Also AIUI Muhammed tried to co-exist in Mecca for a fair while before the Hijra and still tried to get the Meccans to accept him and his followers back in afterwards before the Jihad that succeeded in capturing Mecca two years before the death of Great Prophet.

I don't know who or what it was that the Meccans were praying to or making obligatory religious observances in their pagan activities, but I'm just a suspicious little atheist and these beginnings just slightly reek to me! :eek:

I'm not going to describe what this budding little atheist's view is of the devine inspiration of all religious prophets, peace be upon them...

BTW what does one call it when someone just makes something completely up and puts it down in writing -fiction according to Dewey eh? Or else purhaps worse - lying!

[Hertston]

Originally posted by Zalgiris 1410:

I don't know who or what it was that the Meccans were praying to or making obligatory religious observances in their pagan activities, but I'm just a suspicious little atheist and these beginnings just slightly reek to me! :eek:

I assume as an atheist, you would extend that to Christianity too.. most Christian ritual is ultimately of 'pagan' origin, also. Not to mention Christmas, of course.

That's just the way it works, you may be worshipping a different God or gods, or following a different Prophet or prophets but the religious practices of your culture generally remain the same (within reason), or at least slowly evolve over time.

[Zalgiris 1410]

Was I forced to suffer attending Catholic schooling and did I have to perform unpleasent tasting activities as an Ultar Boy or not! It was a pain in the neck the whole time for sure, but I just never swallowed anything that was gonna buggar me beyond belief. (Nor did I have to become a catomite either, thankfully.)

I did say that I am atheistically intolerant of all religious prophets and you bet'ya that definately includes bloody Christianity, especially given for what it has become (as we know it) it was largely created imparticular by this weird misfortunate persecutor of early Jesus followers - Saul of Tarsus.

What I find particular gnawing is that I carry the very same first given name. Although, at least I can comfort myself with the fact that he must have killed a fair few before he changed his name to Paul and started to write of their 'Acts' and send a few letters to them instead.

Regards,

Saul!

[ October 18, 2005, 02:25 AM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]