LOS, LOF, units, and you!

[aka_tom_w]

maybe there are not very many posts about this topic because it is a very difficult thing to code into the game and so far in this thread you might say Steve is the only one here that really knows what's he talking about.

And, ...most of us don't want to hear about it because we are looking for in game solutions that don't sound like "We can't do it" or "Its too hard to program" or "its too CPU intensive" or "It WILL kill your computer and the game and the game play and the crunch will be 20 - 90 MINUTES LONG to make it work"

So...

Looks like we will have to wait and see. I think ONE thing is for sure..... Steve IS aware of the problem and he knows exactly what we are aksing for. (I think )

-tom w

[ September 19, 2005, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[aka_tom_w]

Thanks Steve,

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

The problem is that LOS checks are not done as frequently as needed for LOF. LOF must assume that the target is in motion and therefore not necessarily in LOF. Even a few split seconds can make a difference there. So LOS can not substitute for LOF.

More importantly, LOS really only means that you know where the unit is, not necessarily that you saw it yourself. With Absolute Spotting most units were spotted by someone else. With Realtive Spotting it isn't that different from the assumption standpoint, just more likely the enemy unit is known through direct LOS.

Steve

[hoolaman]

Hey Tom, why don't you just say "BUMP!!"

I for one am still interested in this topic. Most things Steve says are very difficult are probably not worth persuing. However to quote Steve from another post:

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

[snip]When we look at ANYTHING that happened in a particular setting we have to ask ourselves the following questions:

1. Is it realistic?

2. Is it relatively common?

3. How difficult is it to code up?

If the first answer isn't "Yes", then we stop right there. If the second answer is somewhere between "Slightly Uncommon" to "Very Common", then we move onto the third question, otherwise we abandon the item right there. The less difficult to code, the more likely we go to the final question:

Is it worth doing?

The balance between commonality and difficulty results in either a thumbs up or thumbs down answer. If it is a thumbs up, then it goes into a mile long list of other requests and it is prioritized in relation to the others. If it is thumbs down, then it doesn't have a chance of going in.

I think it could be argued that realistic lines of fire, with offensive grazing fire hopefully as a bonus side-effect, meets all these criteria, except of course "how difficult is it to code up?".

I am sure the good folks at BF.C are already well aware of all this, but a chorus of support may make them prioritize it on the list of things to include.

[The_Capt]

Ok I'll ask, noone yell at me.

I apologize if this has already been covered but here goes.

Speaking of LOS and LOF can we take a minute and have a serious talk about "area fire"?

In the Combat Mission games that it is impossible to direct a unit to fire into an area outside of its LOS...that right, if you can't see into a clump of trees it becomes an impenetrable wall to al forces.

Here is my issue, most fire in combat is blind area fire. A squad may know there is an enemy in a clump of trees but cannot see said enemy. They then raise their sights to a level where they know the rounds they fire will pass thru the woods, firing blind. This is by far the most common type of fire in reality.

Problem is in CM you are forced to have your lads fire at the last piece of ground they can see, usually in the woods a few meters but once you hit the veil you cannot direct fire. You may get lucky and have your lads miss and stray round go into the blackness but I cannot order them to fire thru the woods.

This creates a situation where cover from observation in reality becomes cover from fire. Again in reality almost all fire is area fire, most of it blind. My pain is particularly felt when using larger guns.

Can someone explain to me why I cannot order fire beyond LOS. I see this as a portion of the target line where you can still fire but not see, so not blue but perhaps green of darker shades. Once you get to an obstacle to direct fire (ie a hill) the bar goes the familiar orange black we know and love.

In the field troops will stake in the MGs onto range cards to the point that the platoon comander can tell an MG to fire on a bearing and get effective fire on an enemy. The MG team can't see a damn they don't need to, only get the bullets going in a general direction.

[hoolaman]

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments, but I suspect that unrestricted (or less restricted) area fire would be open to serious abuse. However, who knows what different game mechanics relative spotting will bring to the table?

I think what you could use is a combination with the "FIRE" command that controls elevation. This would allow area fire at second story buildings, and flighting shells over the LOS point.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by The_Capt:

Can someone explain to me why I cannot order fire beyond LOS???

I see this as a portion of the target line where you can still fire but not see, so not blue but perhaps green of darker shades. Once you get to an obstacle to direct fire (ie a hill) the bar goes the familiar orange black we know and love.

Great post!

it probably deserves its own thread

(but its more than at home right here)

I agree completely

there have been plenty of times when I wanted to area fire through smoke or as far as possible into the trees.

I am wondering if there will be any change or solution to this issue or problem in CMx2.

:confused:

-tom w

[aka_tom_w]

bump

and again

quote:

Originally posted by The_Capt:

Can someone explain to me why I cannot order fire beyond LOS???

I see this as a portion of the target line where you can still fire but not see, so not blue but perhaps green of darker shades. Once you get to an obstacle to direct fire (ie a hill) the bar goes the familiar orange black we know and love.

Great post!

Using tanks to lob HE in the woods is a good point you can't area fire or targe past your LOS. Same problem for smoke or fog or just plan night time darkness. In the night you can only target or area fire within your LOS even if it just restricted by darkness, you should be able to Area fire HE with your tanks down range into the darkness farther than your LOS due to darkness limitations. IMO

-tom w

[ October 03, 2005, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Tero]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

Using tanks to lob HE in the woods is a good point you can't area fire or targe past your LOS. Same problem for smoke or fog or just plan night time darkness. In the night you can only target or area fire within your LOS even if it just restricted by darkness, you should be able to Area fire HE with your tanks down range into the darkness farther than your LOS due to darkness limitations. IMO

What about ambient lighting conditions (someone strikes a match, exploding shells etc)? Aural spotting would and did also initiate countless "recce by fire" fireworks.

Currently targeting partially spotted (including bogus contacts like rabbits) is not allowed beyond LOS even when IRL it was a common occurance.

[Andreas]

The problem is that with borg spotting, firing into areas out of LOS is open to very gamey abuse. AIUI that is the reason why it is not allowed, and why e.g. smoke is another impenetrable veil.

All the best

Andreas

[Tero]

With the Borg spotting out there is no excuse not to allow firing beyond LOS in the new game engine, is there ?

[YankeeDog]

I think he's referring to player borg spotting, as opposed to unit AI borg spotting. Two different things.

AIUI, unit AI borg spotting is gone in the new engine. Player borg spotting - the ability of the player to see anything any one of his units sees - is still in.

Cheers,

YD

[aka_tom_w]

thats the "player as God" problem which does impact this discussion, however Steve likes to tell us (more than a few times) that area fire is next to useless when the firing unit cannot see the target, so "in theory" they should not prevent area fire without or beyond LOS in CMx2. (maybe)

I wonder if Steve would care to comment on this issue one more time?

-tom w

[ October 04, 2005, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Battlefront.com]

Yes, God and Borg are the terms we use to distinguish between the two. And it is these reasons that we artificially reduced the ability to fire blind. It is one of those compromises we had to make in order to maximize overall realism.

In CMx2 the Borg is not as much of a problem as it used to be. Still there, but greatly reduced. God is also somewhat reduced, but it is pretty much still there like in CMx1. Therefore, I am not sure what we will do with blind firing. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Just know that if we feel we can allow blind firing this time around we will. There's no technical reason to prevent blind firing, nor is there any desire on our part to artificially restrict this. However, we must do what we must do to limit gamey God/Borg effects and that means we might keep things the same as CMx1.

Steve

[aka_tom_w]

OK

Thanks Steve

Perhaps just a note here, this is the part of the post we will all remember the most

There's no technical reason to prevent blind firing, nor is there any desire on our part to artificially restrict this.

-Steve Oct 4 2005

To add to discussion ....

What if the player only suspects there is a target or an enemy in the woods or behind the smoke and would like to fire blindly without LOS? Why should the suspicion of enemy activity or presence outside of or beyond LOS be penalized along with the restriction that limits the 'Player as God' from having one unit spot an enemy in the woods and directing all other units that do not have LOS to fire into the woods?

I find this interesting and somewhat difficult to understand because a player is free to rain down Arty on ANY suspected emeny position. SURE its better if you have LOS but if the spotter does not have LOS he can still call in Arty on any place on the map that the player only suspects there may be an enemy target.

I am hoping that other aspects of the CMx2 game system, including Relative Spotting to reduce the Borg issue, and command and control structures that somewhat reduce the player as God problem will balance out the Blind fire into no LOS positions for all weapons and not just arty.

Maybe it could be play tested and tweaked to balance out the realism factor. ONE possible way to make it work and "appease the masses" (same as in CMx1 sort of) is to allow area fire/blind fire beyond LOS but tweak the effects of the round or the explosion down so low as to let the player see and think the rounds are actually doing something, but mostly all they do is cause suppression and no actaully wounding or killing (or only VERY little damage if the player is lucky). This sort of the way blind arty fire works now, SURE you can rain arty down blindly, but it usually does almost not damage to the target of the enemy except route or suppress them (BUT sometimes that is enough!)

-tom w

[ October 04, 2005, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[YankeeDog]

One really good idea someone put up here on the forums was to allow blind fire within a certain radius of a TRP for MGs and on-map guns (assuming CMX2 has something like the current TRP unit. . .)

Cheers,

YD

[Other Means]

I think if there was just a delay in an area fire order being carried out. This would partially get around the God problem by simulating the intel to fire into that particular area coming over the command net.

Which means that units in C&C can area fire, those not can't.

Unless they've got their own intel, e.g. they saw a unit go into the woods or got a sound contact etc, then they could area fire with no delay.

To sum up;

Units who have seen or heard a unit within the last n minutes of an area can fire within x meters of them, in or out of LOS.

Units in C&C can get orders over the command net within y seconds to area fire, dependant on strength of C&C, unit experiance etc.

Units not in C&C cannot get area fire commands.

My half a pfennig anyway.

[aka_tom_w]

Units who have seen or heard a unit within the last n minutes of an area can fire within x meters of them, in or out of LOS.

Units in C&C can get orders over the command net within y seconds to area fire, dependant on strength of C&C, unit experiance etc.

Units not in C&C cannot get area fire commands.

That sounds like a VERY reasonable suggestion to me, at least in keeping with the way things used to work in the CMx1 series of games.

I hope they do something like that for CMx2, blind fire should be permited into places and on to targets or areas you don't have LOS to with some reasonable restrictions as mentioned above.

-tom w

[ October 04, 2005, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by c3k:

Gents,

A LARGE consideration: LOS/LOF seem to be merging here. The difference between them only being if a target can be affected. I disagree. There are plenty of INDIRECT fire weapons which utilize a highly arced trajectory specifically to fire against targets with which there is no LOS. And I'm not talking about on-call assets.

Here are some examples: M-79 grenade launcher; M-203; light mortars; short-barrelled infantry cannon (German 7.5cm, 15.0cm); trebuchets; rifled muskets; bombards; and all the rest in this category.

This category of weapon is NOT displaced away from the firing line. They are right up front, and they can see what they want to hit, yet they cannot see their target. "Sergeant, drop HE directly behind that house!" You can see the house; you saw a target move BEHIND the house; you have a weapon which can arc rounds OVER the house; you have NO LOS there, yet, you CAN fire at it.

Will CMx2 support fire by units where the is NO LOS?

Thank you,

Ken

I agree completely

-tom w

[Tero]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

In CMx2 the Borg is not as much of a problem as it used to be. Still there, but greatly reduced.

Oi, gevalt !

Something I was not looking forward to. I thought the Borg had been squashed altogether.

However, we must do what we must do to limit gamey God/Borg effects and that means we might keep things the same as CMx1.

IMO the effect the God aspect has on the game is not as critical as the Borg bit. Only the accuracy and level of intel the player gets is not what it is IRL. Starting with the accuracy of the map. The level of intel concerning enemy troops is in line with IRL.

Have you ever tested the game with Ridiculous Fog of War settings where the map keeps changing on the player as the troops move along and report things like hills or ravines gropping up where there should not be any or where there should be paved roads there are only bottomless mud tracks ?

How much does the reduced Borg actually affect the tactical intel the player gets that could be considered gamey and warrants the denial of firing beyond LOS ?

[ October 04, 2005, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: Tero ]

[Battlefront.com]

Tom, it was just one of those "damned if we do, damned if we don't" choices. We felt, and still feel, that gamey use of area fire in CMx1 would be a major source of irritation and complaint. As it is, very few people have ever complained about the system as it is. Oh, I know some people really don't like it, but it wasn't bad enough to make it into the Top 5 list even once (a few for firing though smoke, but only specifically that).

I agree that LOS and LOF are entirely different things. One can theoretically shoot, directly or indirectly, without actually being able to see a target. Shooting into a forest is one great example, the other is into a house or through a house (like a wood shack). At the very least CMx2 will simulate this stuff better. Not sure how yet, but certainly LOS and LOF are treated separately.

Steve

[hoolaman]

To solve the "unit runs behind house but I can't fire at it" problem, maybe you could have each well spotted unit that goes out of LOS turn into an extrapolated TRP of some sort. So perhaps an area within 10m of the "last seen" unit marker can be targetted for a turn or two regardless of LOS.

Steve has mentioned a targetting memory for the TacAI, and the above could be an addition to this for the player and an aid for the AI. If the AI can treat the area around the marker as a "live" target, it may help both issues.

Perhaps unrestricted area fire could also be added simply as an option. The AI would not really be smart enough to use it, but for a gentlemanly multiplayer game, it may open a world of tactical possibilities.

Another issue would be to target sound contacts and partial contacts directly. I'm not entirely sure why you can't do this now, especially knowing that the position may be unreliable.

The problem of course is not the BORG but the GOD. Even relative spotting with full C&C simulated can not stop the player seeing what unit A spots and fraudulently targetting it with unit B.

I agree its not really that big of a impediment to gameplay, but it does get into issues of realism in the simulation especially with indirect fire weapons.

[jim crowley]

Originally posted by Hoolaman:

Another issue would be to target sound contacts and partial contacts directly. I'm not entirely sure why you can't do this now, especially knowing that the position may be unreliable.

[jim crowley]

Oops, forgot this bit:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Hoolaman:

Another issue would be to target sound contacts and partial contacts directly. I'm not entirely sure why you can't do this now, especially knowing that the position may be unreliable.

This seems like a very good idea; using those sound and partial contacts as another form of TRP.

[Battlefront.com]

Oh, I'd say the Borg is perhaps 90% taken care of. But I am sure there will be some instances of the Borg surviving into CMx2. I can't think of anything off the top of my head, just an understanding that it's a big issue and it might not all be squashed at once.

Steve

[Pak40]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by The_Capt:

Can someone explain to me why I cannot order fire beyond LOS???

I see this as a portion of the target line where you can still fire but not see, so not blue but perhaps green of darker shades. Once you get to an obstacle to direct fire (ie a hill) the bar goes the familiar orange black we know and love.

Great post!

it probably deserves its own thread

(but its more than at home right here)

I agree completely

there have been plenty of times when I wanted to area fire through smoke or as far as possible into the trees.

I am wondering if there will be any change or solution to this issue or problem in CMx2.

</font>