Infantry mod?

[yacinator]

Will it be possible to mod a "vehicle" that looks and behaves like an infantry unit?

[Determinant]

Not from what I have read. But it should be possible to have Mobile Infantry as per Starship Troopers (the book rather than the 'standing in line like infantry at Waterloo firing MGs at bugs' film ). M1A1 TC in his post below has put up some links to how MI (as per the book) are supposed to look: guys in deep sea diving rig with rocket packs and lasers.

In effect MI are more like vehicles than infantry as we understand them in the 21stC. They are very small compared to a vehicle; but slightly less able to find ground cover than an true infantryman due to their larger profile. Their small size of course makes then much harder to acquire as a target than a vehicle.

Their armour is relatively light. Although it can defeat less challenging attacks (equivalent 20thC .50 cal; fragmentation; small bug pincers etc) it is vulnerable to any 'modern' anti-armour attack.

MI's true strength is their agility. Their ability to duck into dead ground (re-entrants etc) and rapidly jet to a new firing position make them a formidable opponent. Think of them as tiny attack helicopters.

But as a result of trade-offs with power to weight they are, compared to a vehicle, underarmed (unless using tac nukes!) and underarmoured. Similarly their sensor suite does not have the range and platform stability that would be found in a heavier ground vehicle. This means that they can be outranged and outgunned by ground vehicles where ground cover is not available: they are not suitable for those resource rich but flat desert planets!

Another MI strength is their shared situational awareness derived from networked sensors and communications: MI have borg spotting capability as standard!

Bring 'em on!

[yacinator]

Oh so modders won't be able to add new vehicles? Cuz theoreticaly you can make a vehicle look like an infantry man can't u?

[MikeyD]

BFC products (those that I've touched) let you mod the skins (textures) but not the polygons. I'd be surprised if that practice changes for this game - but hey, what do I know!

[YankeeDog]

Read the stuff already posted by the development team closely. DropTeam is not developed by BFC, only published. As such, it doesn't follow the same rules as previous BFC products as far as modding goes.

If I read what's been said already been posted correctly, importing new 3D vehicle models into the DropTeam engine *is* possible.

Development team has also made it clear that they are already planning on doing some kind of infantry for DropTeam, albiet not in the initial release.

It's hard to say whether this will allow modders to create some kind of "Mobile Infantry" unit, before such units are "offically" released, though -- it depends on just how flexible this new capability will be. Even mech-assisted MI-type Infantry is more than just a small vehicle that walks instead of rolls. For example, to really do MI infantry right, you need to be able to model different deployment abilities -- either by dropship as it sounds like other vehicles are done, or also via single soldier, one-use drop-capsules as in the Starship Troopers book.

Cover and concealment also becomes different with infantry. Infantry has the rather unique ability to change its height (go from standing to prone), something most vehicles can't do. And even power-suit, MI-type infantry might be small enough to take cover *inside* a building, something vehicles also usually can't do.

But the possibilities are exciting. IMHO, for a really good tactical game, you need some kind of "combined arms triangle" -- usually Arty, Armor, and Infantry. This seems to hold true whether the "Armor" is horsemen or Tanks, the Artillery Archers or MLRSes, and the infantry is hoplites or Mobile Infantry. For the initial release, it sounds like DropTeam is going to have just two -- Armor and Artillery. It might still be a really good game, but my WAG is that it will become a lot more fun once the triangle is complete, and there's infantry units in the mix as well.

Cheers,

YD

[Cameroon]

All the stuff that's been posted so far indicates that you're free to mod units of the same basic supported types (see the post by Claytonious in the announcement thread). However, until infantry is a basic supported type, you won't be able to make infantry that moves like infantry.

I suppose you could just give them very tiny wheels

Personally, the units I want in an expansion or "post-release" release are infantry and walking vehicles.

[yacinator]

Ok so it will be possible to mod ****ty infantry. Thanks for the responses.

[MikeyD]

Yup, I was totally and absolutely wrong. From the game site:

"Add new vehicles, change their physics, change turrets, swap one gun for another or put a brand new gun on a existing unit and more. All of this can be achieved by editing the associated the XML files. You can also create entirely new models and textures that weren't originally included. You can even just drop in your own 3D Studio models if you want!"

Sounds like as fun as the initial product is going to be, its going to be a crazy free-for-all once 3rd party vehicles start being swapped ...free for all.

[Private Bluebottle]

I have a hell-burner missile launcher, a deathstar planet smasher and a supershield generator, watta you got?

[Thomm]

Originally posted by Private Bluebottle:

I have a hell-burner missile launcher, a deathstar planet smasher and a supershield generator, watta you got?

Lots of anti-matter!

[yacinator]

And I have a portable black hole.

[Imperial Grunt]

I hope the game will include infantry at some point. The units would be very useful in both offense and defense and for operating in "no-go" terrain for armored vehicles.

Rather than using the "Starship Troopers" model, I recommend a combination of the US Army's "future warrior" program with some current tech being used by today's US soldiers and Marines.

The first advantage of infantry would be that they would be invisible from sensors once they dismounted from their vehicles or dropships. Thus they could occupy terrain and establish killzones and fire sacs while hidden. The squads would have automatic weapons and grenade launchers capable of taking out light vehicles and also have a sniper capablity for eliminating crew members and taking out key equipment (such as a tank's thermal sight) from a distance, and a limited number of anti-tank rockets, and fire-and-forget anti-tank missles, similar to the current AT-4 rocket (or RPG) and the Javelin fire and forget guided missle. Each squad would should also have the ablility to act as observers to provide battlefield reconnaissance as well as call indirect fire, such as artillery and mortars on spotted enemy units.

Good infantry is a very powerful player on the modern battlefield and will continue to be a key part of any combined arms team. Elite formations, such as Marines and paratroopers will always have a place as both initial assault forces and supporting thier mech brothers in arms in the land campaign. I think the game would benefit greatly from including infantry into the tactical play.

[Panzeh]

I just don't think one could have a viable infantry element on big maps like this one without either huge amounts of players or good squad control.

Would you rather the game be just another half-assed FPS?

[Imperial Grunt]

Big maps would not inhibit the use of infantry. Like I mentioned in my post, they would travel in either armored personnel carriers or be landed by dropships in key locations to take control of key terrain and the like (a good assualt would probably have both elements working together). In the defense, they would not have to have much mobility. Having infantry included in the game provides more tactical options for the player and having a force with no "anti-matter" signature would provide for some good surprizes.

Good squad control would be a key to any good game and I am sure it could be done. As far as game mechanics go, a fireteam or a squad would be equivilent to a vehicle, but with graphics and stats that simulate infantry capabilites and limitations. You could even make recon and heavy weapons teams in addition to the line units. As the unit took hits, its capability would degrade, like in Combat Mission. (But maybe they will be able to re-arm and equip when linked up with a base or their vehicles).

Infantry units would be very useful and it would not make the game into a half-assed FPS. I am sure the armor fans would love the inclusion of tanks overrunning "crunchies" caught in the open. The fun would work both ways.

[Panzeh]

If you make a squad a single 'vehicle', it would have none of the ability of infantry to take cover individually. A general lack of cover on the maps would not lend itself well to infantry warfare, though I do prefer larger open areas to CQB-fests that end up as twitch games. I wouldn't mind infantry, it's just that if they do it just a little wrong, it would either be too powerful or too weak.

I've nothing against including infantry per se; in fact, commanding an IFV and its accompanying infantry could be interesting, but unless infantry is done perfectly in its capabilities, it will be to no one's satisfaction.

There are no armor sims that do infantry dynamically enough as of today..

[yacinator]

quote:

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I am getting this wrong or we will be able to create completely different games with the Drop Team engine?

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It's quite extensible, but there are plenty of things you can't change just by modding. There has to be supporting code for basic behavior, but you can mod with XML and models for content. For example, since the physics engine already has code for wheeled vehicles, you can create new wheeled vehicles, with any number of wheels in any configuration you like, from trikes to 18-wheeler rigs to funky spheres with wheels on top and bottom like some of the exotic designs for Mars Rovers, etc. without a problem. But since the physics engine does not have any code for, say, walking units, you could not create a new "mech" type of unit by simply modding. So, in other words, you can mod to create new or changed versions of existing types of units, but you can't create entirely new types of units (usually, anyway, depending on how creative you are.)

Does tht mean that in order to mod infantry you'd have to write your own code using XML to describe how it moves etc, or will modding infantry (unless on wheels or tracks) will be impossible?

[Cameroon]

So, in other words, you can mod to create new or changed versions of existing types of units, but you can't create entirely new types of units (usually, anyway, depending on how creative you are.)

No infantry until they add it 'cause there won't be any game code that understands the "concept" of an infantry unit.

Unless they jump up and tell me I'm wrong. What they've said seems pretty clear.

[Imperial Grunt]

Then get them to make the code!

[yacinator]

Will it be possible to make your own code for infantry?

[flyingduck]

I know this is a dead thread, but I had a thought on how to add infantry.

have to basic types, light and heavy inf.

Light inf are ai controled in teams of 5-10 by the fleid comander. They would follow orders on where to go like units from a rts, but would behave in combat like ai from an fps (engage targets on their own, take cover indivually, etc). So basically they would go to where the comander ordered them and stay in that area while fighting.

The comander would be able to call teams down up to 3-4 at a time in dropships, or one at a time in harder to hit droppods, simaliarly to deploing mines or turets. As a note light inf would be any troopers in master cheif style armour or lighter. They would not be easily detectable by sensors And should not be directly controled by the players

Heavy inf would be the player in some type of power armour heavier than mc's. And would operate alone instead of in a group. Heavy inf would not be dectable on sensors ethier, unless very close. Heavy inf would also be droppod deployable for attacks near or behind enemy lines. heavy inf would mostly have light autocannons and missles. For some the ablity to dig in and convert into a camofloghed bunker for ambushes would be cool.

But in general light would be used for mobile defence and heavies used for harasment

[ December 17, 2005, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: flyingduck ]

[John Kettler]

Maj West,

How, praytell, would infantry be invisible to sensors? Present infantry can be detected and tracked visually, by active and passive IR, radar, lidar, acoustics, radio intercept, etc. Something as simple as using soap while in the field has given away unit positions. Even if you invoke Predator style chameleon suits and the like, there will still be exploitable signatures. Would an individual infantryman be harder to spot than a tank? Arguably. Invisible? Hardly!

Determinant,

Based on what I've reread so far in STARSHIP TROOPERS (over half the book), tanks don't seem to be very survivable vs. M.I. Heinlein, speaking through his protagonist Juan Rico, is very clear on this point.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Tarquelne]

How, praytell, would infantry be invisible to sensors? Present infantry can be detected and tracked visually, by active and passive IR, radar, lidar, acoustics, radio intercept, etc. Something as simple as using soap while in the field has given away unit positions.

It might be possible to flood the battlefield with chemicals or radiation (like simple IR) to make infantry exceedingly difficult to detect. And this might be routine.

OTOH, it might be possible to flood the battlefield with chemicals/radiation (like simple gamma rays) to make infantry exceedingly dead. And this might be routine.

I bet there are other tricks that could either conceal infantry, of find them, or remove them. So it could go either way, IMO. It'd just depend on exactly what toys each side has to play with. What toys the game pretends each side has to play with.

[John Kettler]

Tarquelne,

I did not say infantry couldn't be hidden if desired

and resources permitted. Rather, I simply objected to Maj West's sweeping, unsubstantiated assertion of infantry invisibility. If you wish to invoke certain exotic broadband obscurants, though, then we have a new ball game, but the technology will work for vehicles and AFVs, too.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Tarquelne]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

[QB] Tarquelne,

I did not say infantry couldn't be hidden if desired

and resources permitted.

Surely.

If you wish to invoke certain exotic broadband obscurants, though, then we have a new ball game, but the technology will work for vehicles and AFVs, too.

Not necessarily. Which is more or less my "meta" point. There might be something about the vehicles that makes them so difficult to hide that it isn't practical. The AM power sources, or something about the armor, or even the just their size.

Will all infantry be equiped with "Forward" mass detectors? Ok, that's VERY silly. But given the game's sci-fi nature I don't think there's a whole lot that it can't plausibly specify, one way or the other.

Note that I'm not objecting to what I think is your basic point... just to your "sweeping, unsubstantiated assertion of" equivilent utility for the "obscurant" (thanks for the word) technology with regard to vehciles.

[John Kettler]

Tarquelne,

When you have the by the vehicle matrix of detectables and the same for the proposed Mobile Infantry all sorted out, E-mail me and I'll make some at least semiinformed comments!

Regards,

John Kettler