minor countries and high tech

[xwormwood]

I would be glad if there could be a little change regarding the equipment for minor countries.

These countries don't have the ability to invest in better tech and can't participate from the achievements of the major countries of their alliance.

But just like in history it would be nice, if the axis or the allies would be able to give these countries parts of their (older) own equipment.

-mabye after upgrading 4 or 5 units with level 3 spare parts there should be enough material to equip a minor unit whith the obsolete remainders of these units, bringing maybe one unit up to level 1?

-or simply producing a unit and after it enters the map one could grant it to a minor country of your own side?

-or granting neutral countries one of you own units (giving them this way better and or / more equipment), maybe even bring this country a bit more toward your own alliance?

This could probably produce a nice surprise & shock if your opponent declares war against some "weak" neutral bonanza...

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Perhaps each minor could be upgraded in tech X if

the major first pays the cost of one chit to trans-

fer tech to the minor? An interesting choice,

perhaps too expensive for most people's blood (as I

usually use them as garrisons in Russia), but a

choice nonetheless.

Can a script be written to transfer tech between

majors?

[Blashy]

Historically when it was done it was on a very minor scale compared to the scale that SC2 is played.

[Retributar]

Yes...i agree with Blashy!...im fairly familiar with WW2 [Not a 100% Expert] and i can't recall much in the way of giving technology or equipment to minor's!.

Maybey it happened somewhere else beyond the example's i'll list next!,...like a previous post mentioned 'Yugoslavia'...where several nations donated huge quantities of material's to the New Yugoslavian army to bring them up to speed...and also where Germany i think supplied the ' Finn's ' with equipment [How much, i don't know]...and lastly where the German's benefited from caputuring 'Polands' tank production facilities and used them to crank out more tanks and anti-tank self propelled unit's for their Panzer Division's!.

[bloodstar]

Easiest solution: Simply make a minor country's tech x - 2 of whatever tech the major country has. (obviously, min level whatever their default tech is for the minor country) say Finland has Anti Tank level 1, and Germany has anti tank to level 4, then finland can upgrade to level 2.

for most minor countries, the major country has to research to at least level 3 before the tech... 'bleeds down' to them.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by bloodstar:

Easiest solution: Simply make a minor country's tech x - 2 of whatever tech the major country has. (obviously, min level whatever their default tech is for the minor country) say Finland has Anti Tank level 1, and Germany has anti tank to level 4, then finland can upgrade to level 2.

for most minor countries, the major country has to research to at least level 3 before the tech... 'bleeds down' to them.

It would still be historically unrealistic, minor countries who did get tech was not the best and most important of all was not in the number of a corps, army, tank or AF the size that sc2 represents.

[Guest Mike]

None the less minors DID increase their tech - the Roumanian a/c infustry turned out improved versions of their indigenous fighter, and Hungarians produced the Me-210 and various upgraded tanks throughout the war.

The Finish, Hungarian and Roumanian airforces were also equipped with significant numbers of German fighters - mostly Me-109G's.

These increases WERE on a national level ofr these countries.

Not only that, but when/if France gets reconquered it starts at pre-war levels despite the military being equipped with mostly brand new American equipment.

I think minors should be allowed to buy tech from their major, then pay to upgrade their troops just like anyone else.

[Cheese Panzer]

I don't mind the Axis minors being limited, but it does seem very strange that the Canadians cannot be ugraded.

[Retributar]

The Canadians were MAJOR PARTICIPANTS in WW2...and they supplied vast quantities of equipment of every description to the British!.

Infact, from a previous post, i mentioned, that the Canadian's only used 30% of what they manufactured for their own forces!...the rest was supplied to other's.

So, as you say Cheese Panzer...

B] I don't mind the Axis minors being limited, but it does seem very strange that the Canadians cannot be ugraded.

Not only is it strange!...but very wrong!.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

It should be a choice-most of the time the Germans

won't have extra cash to spare to upgrade their

minor allies. But if trading tech to a minor is

possible trading tech to an allied major power

should also be possible (with steep costs of course,

preferably payable by the receiving country). Can

Italy afford to buy tank tech from the Germans?

Probably not in most cases.

[Panzerkeil]

Agreed on that point about Canadian tech. We had crappy stuff at the beginning of the war, but by the end of the war we had tank units with the Sherman Firefly, air units with Lancasters and late mark Spitfires. Something's broken here and needs fixing. Again, I'm afraid we are limited by the game's mechanics.

[Timskorn]

I'd like the ability to upgrade minor troops like Romania but at an increased cost, like 2 or 3 times that of upgrading German troops. Gives you the option, at least, but a costly one.

[Liam]

It's wasted energy. Historically these troops were not significant, however Canadians should be part of the UK MainForce......absorbed so to speak.... they operated on their own but they certianly were fully supplied by the British as a Fighting force, Canada was more or less just a recruitment center.

Germans never had the time or energy to Give Bulgaria, Hungary of Romania much. Obviously Wermacht frontline units needed that equipment much more and training the others in using it would have taken awhile. Making it cost more only makes it more a waste of energy. Axis Minors are great for partisan blockage, garrisoning and swarming your ranks from possible encirclements

as far as Italians, Italians wouldn't have used Wermacht Equipment on a great scale..

to summize: Germans barely had the equipment they needed to upgrade themselves let alone everyone else. Americans on the other hand, different story

[Guest Mike]

Really? 1/4th of the troops used in Barbarossa is insignificant?

Italians used German tanks and aero-engines, but then they have their own tech and this isn't about them.

The 4 main minor axis powers all had German equipment to some degree or other, especially their airforces which almost universally ended up using Me-109G's as their main fighters buy 1943/44.

In what way does that not represent an advance in tech for them?

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Liam:

[QB] It's wasted energy. Historically these troops were not significant, however Canadians should be part of the UK MainForce......absorbed so to speak.... they operated on their own but they certianly were fully supplied by the British as a Fighting force, Canada was more or less just a recruitment center.

That is so harsh to Canadians, they probably produced more overall materials than the UK!

They had their own units under their own control... Juno Beach was Canadian only.

But on the scale that SC2 is played, I can understand them not having tech.

[Guest Mike]

On the scale SC2 is played it is nonsense - in what manner did Canadian tech differ from UK/other commonwealth tech?

[Liam]

1/4th the troops on the Eastern Front, yes, you may say that Italians/Romanians, etc... were a large portion of Manpower and units contributed. Maybe many used German equipment, however would you likely just make that part of the existing Wermacht instead? The 2 armies put there for Romania that can be quite useful.. they can inflict without experience in good supply as much as 3 damage points per upon Red Units especially in the opening turns when Reds are without tech and HQ. Afterwards they would suite best to garrisons, amphibious operations(which is a bit shakey, they shouldn't really have that ability if they're truly lowtech but I always use them isntead of German Armies that are HQ supported to do off the wall dirty but neccessary jobs) so are these armies strong and useful? Yes they are... THEY do not suck German HQ strength either which means you do not have to worry about overstacking 1 Regional Army Group with too many German Units, they can fill in holes. Great to post against Partisans, but in a pinch you may need them on the frontlines, as did the Germans. Italians can upgrade their equipment and benefit from German Tech. IN fact Italians can upgrade beyond Germany if they so choose as in one of my games Italians got Mobilization 2 and that was quite kick ass for outflanking Allies all around D-Day but still not an effective purchase. Also Italians with GLR 1 which is easy to obtain for them is Hellish for killing the Med! I took Malta and Egypt with no problems...

As for representation of Leaders, I know how many feel with Franco now and Mannerheim, any guys here from any of the Minor nations feel they should be represented by an HQ, I understand fully, most Balkan Nations should at least have an HQ if not tech then. They did have some leadership I do know this... Kind of superflous for Hungary but Romania fields 3 offensive units!

Canada, Yes WAS pretty strong source of Resources for UK but they were fighting along side in with the Brits, their equipment and leadership should be shared across the board, not sure if that is already done? As well as all the CommonWealth's in Egypt? Only downside is having 5 strong Brit units and the Corps there sucking out the HQ so they cannot perform, similar situation with overstacking German HQs

Not downgrading foreign sacrifices just trying to be Strategic.. Canada gets a bomber, cruiser, corp unit so far as I've seen? Not much.....but calculate what they the Brits in Resources over the length of a 5 year game, far outweighs a tech factor or HQ factor, fielding 5 Canadian units is unlikely when I haven't seen 5 Americans at the getgo a Major Player.

[ May 08, 2006, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

[Liam]

P.S. 1 strong point, Canadians, South Africans, New Zealanders, Australians, etc... All Fought harder than Axis Minors as far as I can tell and were all better trained.. Personally how could they come into the war without English Equipment, since England was the primary designer of their equipment correct? Everything would be UK Based, so they'd all be on par with the HomeBase

Meanwhile, I do not hear of the same efforts for the Axis Minors. I do know Hungary was more beloved. I am sure because Hitler was stupid, he didn't better supply his Minor Buddies and Broke by '42 unlike his wise adversaries. He probably couldn't have afforded to supply them by that point when the war began to get grave late '42. Too little too late, all that cost of concentration camps could've likely trained 500 thousand Axis Minors with at least Basic techniques and basic German equipment, but instead he pursued a Mad Ideal. Hence He Lost

[Guest Mike]

No-one is sugesting that teh Axis minors get teh same tech as the Germans tho - only that they can piggy-back off German tech to buy increases of their own up to levels that are less than the Germans have.

Eg it's been suggested that they be allwoed to get Tech -2 - so if the Germans get Tanks 5 then they can purchase Tanks 3 (except they dont' get any tanks of course.....), or if hte Germans get advanced a/c 5 then they can get advanced a/c 3.

For Infantry weapons and anti-tank and long range a/c I think it should be German -1, since there's only 3 levels for each of those.

[Cheese Panzer]

Originally posted by Liam:

P.S. 1 strong point, Canadians, South Africans, New Zealanders, Australians, etc... All Fought harder than Axis Minors as far as I can tell and were all better trained.. Personally how could they come into the war without English Equipment, since England was the primary designer of their equipment correct? Everything would be UK Based, so they'd all be on par with the HomeBase

Part of the Canadian question has to do with how Canada is handled by the SC2 game engine. Rather than being part of the UK (and thus available for upgrading) it's handled as an Allied Minor and thus no upgrades. I think this is so Canada doesn't surrender the instant the UK does, and maybe convoy routes have to be between independant countries, I don't know.

The South Africans, Australians, and New Zealanders are all treated as UK units by the game - the only thing that makes then different is their name. I'm not entirely sure but I think they come in with highest UK tech when they appear (much like the Siberians) and in any even can be upgraded as normal UK units. I do know that historically the SA/AU/NZ units were created in their home countries, sent piecemeal to Europe, and didn't receive their heavy equipment (artillery, tanks, anti-tank guns, etc.) until they arrived in Europe.

Stalin's Organist:

Not downgrading foreign sacrifices just trying to be Strategic.. Canada gets a bomber, cruiser, corp unit so far as I've seen? Not much.....but calculate what they the Brits in Resources over the length of a 5 year game, far outweighs a tech factor or HQ factor, fielding 5 Canadian units is unlikely when I haven't seen 5 Americans at the getgo a Major Player.

Canada has more units than they get for free in the game - if you check under their build options I'm pretty sure there is a HQ, two Armies, a Tank Group, an Air Fleet, and Cruiser - a force roughly the size of Spain or Sweden.

[Panzerkeil]

Originally posted by Blashy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Liam:

[QB] It's wasted energy. Historically these troops were not significant, however Canadians should be part of the UK MainForce......absorbed so to speak.... they operated on their own but they certianly were fully supplied by the British as a Fighting force, Canada was more or less just a recruitment center.

That is so harsh to Canadians, they probably produced more overall materials than the UK!

They had their own units under their own control... Juno Beach was Canadian only.

But on the scale that SC2 is played, I can understand them not having tech. </font>

[Lars]

Originally posted by Liam:

As for representation of Leaders, I know how many feel with Franco now and Mannerheim, any guys here from any of the Minor nations feel they should be represented by an HQ, I understand fully, most Balkan Nations should at least have an HQ if not tech then. They did have some leadership I do know this... Kind of superflous for Hungary but Romania fields 3 offensive units!

Yeah, has anybody bothered to buy the Romanians a HQ yet? I've toyed with it but always decided against.

What I'd like to see is perhaps a joint Minor HQ for all three countries. Maybe keep the attachment level low.

[Exel]

Originally posted by Blashy:

Historically when it was done it was on a very minor scale compared to the scale that SC2 is played.

Finland received plenty of arms tech from all sides of the war. First in 1939-40 from France, England and the US (eg. Brewster and Morane-Saulnier fighters) and later in 1941-44 from Germany (eg. Messerschmitts, StuGs, Panzerschreks and -fausts). Canadian troops similarly received weapons from the UK and the US (eg. Shermans).

I'd suggest that the tech level of the minors would be that of the majors -1 level. It wouldn't overpower the minors but would retain them useful even later in the war.

[John Hugo]

All that has to be done is to give the editor the ability to change the minor powers just like the major powers. Plain and simple. The you can do whatever you want.

[Exel]

I'm sick and tired of these editor comments. It's turning out exactly as I feared it would, at least for the communitys part. Nowadays it is rather a rule than exception that all suggestions on how to improve the game are countered with "use the editor" comments.

I hope at least Hubert will stay from stepping into that trap.

No matter how great it is, the editor will only serve a fraction of the community. Sure, the actives may do their changes and experiment with changes suggested by others, but what about the rest? You can't apply an improvement universally with the editor, you can do that only with a patch.

Not all suggestions are of course worthy of being officially patched, but that's up to the devs to decide. Meanwhile let's stop using the editor argument in our discussions.

Ugh.