Geopolitics of the New Cold War:

[Retributar]

A disturbing article for those who can spend the better part of an hour reading it!. It does seem to make sense, unfortunately!.

http://www.321gold.com/editorials/engdahl/engdahl021907.html

[TaoJah]

Naaaah, way too doomy for me. I don't think the US leaders are the smartest ones in the world, but even they won't nuke anyone !

They got away with nuking 100.000 innocent japanese civilians in WWII, but even that is seen as one of the great stains on US history. And the Japanese attacked them first, so they had an excuse (even when it was a lousy one).

Can you imagine the outrage around the world and inside the US when the US would first-strike nuclear against Russia, like the article suggests ???

Not a chance.

There are too many countries with nuclear weapons in the world, it's way too dangerous to actually use them first.

The nuclear weapons that the US dropped on Japan killed 100,000 innocent people. On 9/11 3,000 inncocent people were killed. That kinda sums up exactly how devestating a nuclear attack is...

All these countries have nuclear weapons :

- France

- UK

- US

- Russia

- China

All five of these countries have an undisclosed number of submarines with nuclear weapons on board.

- India : a country that never signed the nuclear treay and thus is free to do whatever it wants. And the US now signed a treay with India to actually exchange nuclear information and agreed NOT to check a dozen military nuclear installations.

The US is betting that India will become a power to stand against China. That's a dangerous strategy : they betted that Sadam Houssein would become a power against Iran and Osama Bin Laden against Russia. We all know how THAT turned out...

- Israel : a country that is more and more becoming a political problem for the US. The Israelian actions are becoming impossible to defend : building nuclear weapons (how can the US say that they'll attack Iran because it is maybe building nuclear weapons, when they accept that Israel already has them ?), expanding the settlements dispite their agreement not to, building walls (sounds familiar ?), invading countries, using cluster bombs on civilian areas and assasinate members from a democraticly chosen parlement in a neibour country. And that's just in the last year !

- North Korea : enough said.

I think the world is safer because of the fact that several countries have nuclear weapons.

It would be even more safe when even more countries had them, like Iran, Taiwan, Germany, Japan, Brazil, Canada, South-Africa, Australia and Italy. Then even the most war-hunger leader wouldn't think of using them.

[ChrisND]

Originally posted by TaoJah:

I think the world is safer because of the fact that several countries have nuclear weapons.

It would be even more safe when even more countries had them, like Iran, Taiwan, Germany, Japan, Brazil, Canada, South-Africa, Australia and Italy. Then even the most war-hunger leader wouldn't think of using them.

Iran?

In a long line of naive and outright dumb things you have said, this has GOT to top them all.

[Preusse]

You forgot Pakistan and Israel.

[jon_j_rambo]

"You finally did it!" --- Chuck Heston, in the classic, Planet of the Apes.

Rapture me,

-Legend

[Blashy]

The thing is, the day Iran has nukes, then the world will want to deal on an even level with them.

That's the problem, everyone has figured that one out. The Islamic bomb as they call it, will put them on even footing with the christian part of the world. Religion in the way once again, fun fun fun...

North Korean being the best example.

Pakistan AND Israel have nuclear weapons. Israel has between 100-200.

[arado234]

If the U.S.A. were ever to try and nuke all thier enemies they in turn would die eventually from radioactive fall out.I saw a very good show on this very subject.When the russians exploded some ginormus 50 megaton bomb the russian scientists explaned you cant use these bombs because of nuclear fallout.They suggested letting N.A.T.O.(U.S.A.)spend countless billions building nukes hoiping that the N.A.T.O.scientists knew the samething.MUTALLY ASSURED DESTRUCTION FOR ALL.Nuclear war is absolutley POINTLESS.

[ChrisND]

Yeah, but some assholes WANT to die for their cause, or just don't care. What if they get ahold of them?

[arado234]

Normal Dude you are right about that.I dont know if radicals could get ahold of enough of them to cause a major global disaster.The thing about iran is that as it stands they are doing NOTHING illegal.Under the nuclear nonpoliferation(which WE had them sign) treaty it allows them to do exactly what they are doing .They say its for non aggresive(i personally dont believe them)means.Ive read where iran claims they are worried about global warming(again i dont believe them)and say nuclear energy is much cleaner..As far as america nuking their enemies,those who want to die for their cause will have achieved their goal because the atomic fallout(depending on how many used)will kill the user.I dont think they(the terrorists)will get the ability to fire a nuke from say iran and hit america.Americans may have to worry about a biological weapon brought into the states and used.That to me is a much bigger threat.

[Night]

I don't have an hour to read the article but I can tell you for certain that my country will not surprise nuke Russia. Much more likley we will use tactical nukes on Iran, but even then it is more likley the Israelis will do it first and save us the trouble. Russia under Putin is a big threat to the U.S. behind the scence. He hates us and desperatly wants to see Russia as #1. Probally has a lot to do with Bravado and pride, and money of course. He is nothing more than a glorified gangster.

FYI most people inside the U.S. who have the full story do not consider nuking Japan to be a "stain" on us at all. I for one am glad we saved so many lives both in Japan and American. Can't argue with the facts even as bad as the A-bomb is. :/

[arado234]

I dont like the A BOMB either but like you said in saved allied lives.War is war,you fight to win.

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by Normal Dude:

Iran?

In a long line of naive and outright dumb things you have said, this has GOT to top them all.

Yup, Iran.

Read the next mail and you'll see why...

Originally posted by Night:

Much more likley we will use tactical nukes on Iran, but even then it is more likley the Israelis will do it first and save us the trouble.

People are openly talking about using nuclear weapons against Iran.

That's why I stick to my point : a world where every mayor nation has the same weapons is a safer place then a world where only a few nations have them.

Originally posted by Night:

FYI most people inside the U.S. who have the full story do not consider nuking Japan to be a "stain" on us at all. I for one am glad we saved so many lives both in Japan and American.

The full story is known : the US killed 100,000 civilians with nuclear weapons of mass destruction and yes, they saved x lives with that.

No one knows what x is.

But everyone knows what 100,000 is : that's 33 9/11s.

What exactly is the rest of the full story ?

[ February 20, 2007, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: TaoJah ]

[Exel]

Originally posted by TaoJah:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Night:

FYI most people inside the U.S. who have the full story do not consider nuking Japan to be a "stain" on us at all. I for one am glad we saved so many lives both in Japan and American.

The full story is known : the US killed 100,000 civilians with nuclear weapons of mass destruction and yes, they saved x lives with that.

No one knows what x is.

But everyone knows what 100,000 is : that's 33 9/11s.

What exactly is the rest of the full story ? </font>

[Exel]

Originally posted by arado234:

If the U.S.A. were ever to try and nuke all thier enemies they in turn would die eventually from radioactive fall out.I saw a very good show on this very subject.When the russians exploded some ginormus 50 megaton bomb the russian scientists explaned you cant use these bombs because of nuclear fallout.They suggested letting N.A.T.O.(U.S.A.)spend countless billions building nukes hoiping that the N.A.T.O.scientists knew the samething.MUTALLY ASSURED DESTRUCTION FOR ALL.Nuclear war is absolutley POINTLESS.

The world has seen hundreds of nuclear detonations of varying magnitudes, and one Chernobyl. We aren't dead yet. What prohibits the use of nuclear weapons is the fear of massive retaliation, not fallout per se. That, and the bad rep, as long as politicians care about that.

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by Exel:

The world has seen hundreds of nuclear detonations of varying magnitudes, and one Chernobyl. We aren't dead yet. What prohibits the use of nuclear weapons is the fear of massive retaliation, not fallout per se. That, and the bad rep, as long as politicians care about that.

Euh, no... Chernobil wasn't a nuclear detonation : it was a steam explosion that started other non-nuclear explosions and theyblew up the mantle of the reactor, releasing radioactivity.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Night:

Probally has a lot to do with Bravado and pride, and money of course. He is nothing more than a glorified gangster.

I guess that puts Putin and Bush on the same wavelength...

[Desert Dave]

Originally posted by Blashy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Night:

Probally has a lot to do with Bravado and pride, and money of course. He is nothing more than a glorified gangster.

I guess that puts Putin and Bush on the same wavelength... </font>

[Exel]

Originally posted by TaoJah:

Euh, no... Chernobil wasn't a nuclear detonation

I did not say it was. I said there have been hundreds of nuclear detonations and Chernobyl - all producing fallout.

[arado234]

Exel you know as well as i do that if one major power lets fly with all their nukes there will be massive radioactive fallout.Alot of the latter testing was done underground to prevent such fallout.The scientists who made the bombs are the ones who said there will be massive fallout if the bombs are used.They should know. Chernobyl did cause alot of human suffering.China and russia wont let america or israel fire nukes at iran without responding.They both have to much to loose.China has that huge oil and natural gas deal with iran.They will defend it.There is no such thing as limited nuclear war.All gloves are off if one side tries that.

[Exel]

Originally posted by arado234:

Exel you know as well as i do that if one major power lets fly with all their nukes there will be massive radioactive fallout.Alot of the latter testing was done underground to prevent such fallout.The scientists who made the bombs are the ones who said there will be massive fallout if the bombs are used.They should know. Chernobyl did cause alot of human suffering.China and russia wont let america or israel fire nukes at iran without responding.They both have to much to loose.China has that huge oil and natural gas deal with iran.They will defend it.There is no such thing as limited nuclear war.All gloves are off if one side tries that.

Certainly there will be massive fallout if all sides fire all their nukes. But that's different from employing a few tactical nukes (eg. against Iran). Nukes are extremely dangerous, but there's no need to exaggerate their scaryness. One nuke aint going to kill everyone. And mind you, the threat of massive nuclear strike to the user is much more from the retaliation than from the fallout of their own weapons (if launched to the other side of the globe, like from US to China or Russia, or Iran). The treshold to use nukes would be nowhere near as high if other major players didn't have them as well.

[Jev.Dk]

Well we almost went before...

1. Suez Crisis

On November 5, 1956, during the Suez crisis, the North America Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) received warnings that seemed to indicate that a large-scale Soviet attack was under way: a Soviet fleet was moving from the Black Sea to a more aggressive posture in the Aegean, 100 Soviet MiGs were detected flying over Syria, a British bomber had just been shot down in Syria, and unidentified aircraft were in flight over Turkey, causing the Turkish air force to go on high alert.

All signs pointed to the ominous, except that, not long after, each of the four warnings was found to have a completely innocent explanation. The Soviet fleet was conducting routine exercises, the MiGs were part of a normal escort – whose size had been exaggerated – for the president of Syria, the British bomber had made an emergency landing after mechanical problems, and last, but not least, the unidentified planes over Turkey? Well, they turned out to be a large flock of swans.

2. SAC-NORAD Communication Failure

On November 24, 1961, all communication links between U.S. Strategic Air Command (SAC) and NORAD suddenly went dead, cutting off the SAC from three early warning radar stations in England, Greenland, and Alaska.

The communication breakdown made no sense, though. After all, a widespread, total failure of all communication circuits was considered impossible, because the network included so many redundant systems that it should have been failsafe.

The only alternative explanation was that a full-scale Soviet nuclear first strike had occurred. As a result, all SAC bases were put on alert, and B-52 bomber crews warmed up their engines and moved their planes onto runways, awaiting orders to counterattack the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons. Luckily, those orders were never given. It was discovered that the circuits were not in fact redundant because they all ran through one relay station in Colorado, where a single motor had overheated and caused the entire system to fail.

3. U2 Spy Plane Accidentally Violates Soviet Airspace

U2 spy planes were high-altitude aircraft that took pictures of the Soviet Union with extremely powerful long-distance telephoto lenses. During the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962, U2 pilots were ordered not to fly within 100 miles of the Soviet Union to avoid antagonizing the Soviets.

However, on October 26, 1962, a U2 pilot flying over the North Pole made a series of navigational errors because the shifting lights of the aurora borealis prevented him from taking accurate readings with his sextant. As a result, he ended up flying over the Chukotski Peninsula in northern Siberia, causing the Soviets to order a number of MiG interceptors to shoot his plane down immediately.

Instead of letting him be shot down, however, the United States responded quickly by sending out F-102A fighters armed with nuclear missiles to escort the U2 back to American airspace and prevent the MiGs from following it. Unbelievably, the tactic worked. Even more amazing: the decision whether to use their nuclear missiles was left to the American pilots, and could have easily resulted in a nuclear conflict.

4. When Camping, Make Sure to Hide Your Food and Your Nuclear Weapons

On October 25, 1962, again during the Cuban Missile Crisis, a security guard at an air base in Duluth, Minnesota, saw a shadowy figure scaling one of the fences enclosing the base. He shot at the intruder and activated an intruder alarm, automatically setting off intruder alarms at neighboring bases.

However, at the Volk Field air base in Wisconsin, the Klaxon loudspeaker had been wired incorrectly, and instead sounded an alarm ordering F-106A interceptors armed with nuclear missiles to take off. The pilots assumed that a full-scale nuclear conflict with the Soviet Union had begun, and the planes were about to take off when a car from the air traffic control tower raced down the tarmac and signaled the planes to stop. The intruder in Duluth had finally been identified: it was a bear.

5. A Terrifying Crash

On January 21, 1968, fire broke out on a B-52 carrying a nuclear payload near Greenland, forcing the crew to bail out. The unmanned plane then crashed about seven miles from the early warning radar station in Greenland.

The damage done could have been remarkable. The plane exploded as did the explosives surrounding the radioactive core of the nuclear weapons (which require conventional explosives to detonate). Given the state of nuclear weapons technology at the time, this type of unintentional detonation of conventional first-stage explosives could have theoretically triggered the second-stage fission reaction, resulting in a nuclear explosion. Luckily for the world, it didn’t.

The resulting explosion would have not only severed regular communications between the early warning station and NORAD, it would have also triggered an emergency alarm based on radiation readings taken by sensors near the station. The only conclusion at NORAD headquarters, in this grisly hypothetical but very plausible scenario, would have been that the Soviets were launching a preemptive nuclear strike, and the United States would have responded in kind.

6. Comp Fear

On November 9, 1979, four command centers for the U.S. nuclear arsenal received data on their radar screens indicating that the Soviet Union had launched a full-scale nuclear first strike on the United States. Over the next six minutes, planes were launched and nuclear missiles initialized for an immediate retaliatory strike.

The president’s National Emergency Airborne Command Post – an armored jump jet with radiation shielding and advanced communications capabilities, meant to allow the president to remain in contact with the government and armed forces during a nuclear war – was also launched, although curiously without the president aboard. However, the alarm was canceled because no sensors or satellites detected an actual Soviet missile launch. The alarm had been caused by computer software used for training exercises depicting a nightmare scenario Soviet first strike.

Senator Charles Percy, who happened to be at NORAD headquarters during this event, said the reaction was one of overwhelming panic and terror. Justifiably so.

7. Comp Fear, Part 2

Electronic displays at NORAD, the SAC, and the Pentagon included prominent, highly visible numeric counters showing the number of enemy nuclear missiles detected. They normally displayed four zeros – “0000” – indicating that no nuclear missiles had been launched.

However, on June 3, 1980, at 2:25 in the morning, the counters started randomly substituting the number “2” for “0.” As a result, crews manning bombers carrying nuclear weapons were ordered to begin to warm up their engines, Minuteman missiles were initialized for launch, and airborne command posts were also launched.

It was determined that this first even was a false alarm, but three days later it happened a second time – causing the entire emergency response procedure to start rolling once again. The problem was eventually traced back to a single faulty computer chip combined with faulty wiring.