Diplo is killing me! USA shouldn't be bought!

[Hubert Cater]

True, the only problem is that probably any other solution would force me to change code and most likely add in an extra data feature to hold just how much influence diplo should have over majors as I am not sure just halving diplo effect on majors is the best solution considering customization etc., i.e. it is also not immediately apparent when viewing diplo in the Editor unless you look for the describing text in a README file

[Terif]

In this case: yes, why not - since diplo is driven mostly by luck and less by strategy I personally have nothing against reducing its influence in total .

This way Spain will perhaps not join any more usually in 1940, but with Axis still having more chits before Barbarossa can still be brought into the Axis camp in time for the russian campaign.

Edit:

In the long run it never the less would be better to separate major and minor diplo (or remove major diplo at all), since the main problem is that influencing majors is much more profitable than influencing minors. But an easy solution here could perhaps be to increase the costs for influencing majors, but nevertheless reduce diplo effects cause otherwise it would lead to gambling (high risk, but also high reward if you are lucky).

[ September 14, 2006, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[Yogi]

I'd like to see diplo as an option not a built in automatic. Those who want to reduce the "luck" factor and concentrate on military strategy could just turn it off when they don't want to deal with it. Turned off, countries could behave as they did historically. If needed, when turned off mpp numbers could be reduced as they are no longer needed for diplomacy (if it is felt that is needed to keep force strength realistic)

By making it an option, those who love it can still have it. Those who are frustrated by it (like me quite often) can be rid of it. As it is now, I just don't find it very realistic as discussed in a few of the other threads.

Rambo's diplomatic skills could also then be saved for his forum posts.

[Hubert Cater]

Yogi Diplomacy and Research can be turned off within the Editor under Campaign->Edit Campaign Data->Advanced. You can then save it as a Custom campaign and play from that one instead of the Default.

Hope this helps,

Hubert

[Yogi]

Originally posted by Hubert Cater:

Yogi Diplomacy and Research can be turned off within the Editor under Campaign->Edit Campaign Data->Advanced. You can then save it as a Custom campaign and play from that one instead of the Default.

Hope this helps,

Hubert

Thanks Hubert, I appreciate the information. You have designed a great game. It is great that the editor can do so many things for those who enjoy playing with it and I applaud the editor being part of the game. I will again say however that some don't care to have to go to the editor to do things. Some would just like to have "options" and "features" built into the game with no need to make changes themselves.

[n0kn0k]

Why not just up the cost even more for major diplomacy? Making it not worth while is easier then other solutions that require programming.

Btw having some fun with the editor atm

[FerrisB]

How about just halving the overall effects of Diplomacy in general but keeping the minor influence bonus the same?

- I`d like this one

&

Why not just up the cost even more for major diplomacy?

- I´d like this one too. IMO cost for major should be 200-300 and 75-100 for minors for both sides so that both sides can counter at equal costs.

With this two changes diplomacy (and luck) in general become less powerful & major diplomacy more expensive.

[jon_j_rambo]

Agreed, increasing the cost would work.

[Hubert Cater]

Yogi, good points and I'll see what I can do

[Hubert Cater]

Terif, I agree having a separate category for influence of majors and minors would be nice as well... we'll see what I can do wrt this in the future.

[Scook]

The ideas here for halving diplo influence are good. Spain, for example, takes 2-5 hits to become Axis, with 3.5 being the average. Making it take 6-7 diplo hits is a good thing.

USSR and USA should have diplomacy, but definatly be treated separate from minors. Sincs this is the 1st foray into diplomacy, maybe raise the cost to 200 per chit for US/USSR on the Allied side, and 250 or 300 for the Axis side. I would hold any major changes for Strategic Command 3, World Destiny .

While I am thinking of it, how random is the random number generator? Almost every game I play, either side will get one of the 5% (or is it 10%?) big number hits for a minor. With roughly 8-12 hits total per game, this number seems large.

[SeaMonkey]

Look, perhaps I owe Rambo an apology, but I'm wary at changing the diplomatic mechanics too much. This is one of the most important aspects of SC2, one of the dimensions we all asked to be expanded.

HC accomplished that fact. I think that even though the combat and conquest features of SC are most attractive to us wargamers, we must not forget how important diplomacy can play out in real life.

Diplomacy is the antonym to war, in many ways its effectiveness should be comparable. I think it makes for a most compelling game of SC2 when taken in the "what if" context. It is consistent with the real world.

I like Scook's idea, how about a three tier approach to diplomatic randomization. The majors cost the most with the lesser of a randomizer, the mediums(Spain, Turkey, Sweden), moderate expense, a little more possibility of a greater percentage, and finally the minors, with the greatest chance of joining one side or the other, at the least MPP investment.

[jon_j_rambo]

Yoda grabbing a root beer at Mickey D's as he logs in with his laptop to discuss the latest Diplo trends.

[Scook]

I thought Yodl would be bigger. Yes, judge him by his size, I did.

[Liam]

Halving Diplomacy effect would have a desired effect for the USA and USSR, reason being:

It would increase the cost, though the Germans with more MPPs early may take advantage of this fact

As I mentioned before the UK couldn't buy the USA if she wanted. Similarly Germany wouldn't have achieved much on her own, she had a bad reputation.

As I purposed and heard and I like the idea.. Taking out Majors altogether of the diplomatic game might be favorable, and leave the diplos to minors would be a sound strategy. That would take the focus off this topic.

[jon_j_rambo]

USA needs adjusted, nobody buys Uncle Sam.

[Colin I]

Think, like most countries, THAT is done on an internal market

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Originally posted by Scook:

While I am thinking of it, how random is the random number generator? Almost every game I play, either side will get one of the 5% (or is it 10%?) big number hits for a minor. With roughly 8-12 hits total per game, this number seems large.

While I don't know exactly what kind of RNG Hubert is

using, I do know that Murphy's Law is a given using

the kinds of random algorithms he crafted (that is,

given your 5% longshot it will come in sooner or

later, often at unexpected or inconvenient times).

It's simply the nature of the beast-see my big

huge post about how luck affects tech from earlier

this year.

[rleete]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

USA needs adjusted, nobody buys Uncle Sam.

They don't need to buy off the whole thing, just FDR.

[JerseyJohn]

I've been trying to understand the point about the UK buying Uncle Sam and can't. What the expenditure represents, is behind the scenes negotiating, such as the FDR-Churchill meetings on Prince of Wales long before the U. S. entry in the war.

There is no Axis equivalent. No meetings between Hitler and Roosevelt, or Ribbentrop and Roosevelt, or even one of Ribbentrop's representatives with a representitive of Sec of State Cordell Hull. No U. S.- Axis diplomacy whatever.

Along the way, I agree with the idea that there should be differences in the diplomacy methods between major and minor powers.

All in all, a very interesting subject and thread.

[Retributar]

Veeerrryyy Intereeesssting!, BUT!!!,...Not Veeerrryyy Funny!.

[Scook]

SC is a very clean and simple system, not to say the game is simplistic. Diplomacy is very convoluted and murky, many countries may like or dislike what a country does, or may choose to ignore it. For now, making the costs a little more pricey, and making major powers an investment is a good thing.

SC3 Diplomacy will be a discussion saved for when HC wants to even *think* of that reality.

[Retributar]

"REALITY" is a State of 'Mind & Matter' ,...if YOU don't 'Mind', it doesn't 'Matter'!.

Welcome to the 'Twilight-Zone' !!!.

[Scook]

So if you mind, you will matter? I feel a Black Hole coming on.

[Canuck_para]

I like the wild card of diplo. There are those that want to break it down to a game of chess. war is not so clear cut. We can disagree with the game but let us try and make it better. I cn say with my military background that we can never plan ahead.