Diplomacy Popup Info

[Desert Dave]

Lars, fairly patient:

Look, I understand what you're saying, but if you want diplo to work in the game like you seem to think it should, i.e. being a surprise, then the percentages on the screen shouldn't update AT ALL due to opponent's successful actions. Let the player be lulled into a false sense of security until sudden activation.

That would come as a shock.

But... THEN you wouldn't be able to counter your opponent's moves, would you?

Example:

I am playing Allies, and you are Axis.

I have invested 2 chits, costing me 150 MPP's (... since the country in question LEANS towards the other side)

In, let's say - Sweden,

So that I might "turn them" to my way

Of geo-political thinking,

And thereby END that iron ore convoy.

So,

You WANT TO KNOW?

That I've done that bit of duplicity?

Right away?

Wouldn't it be better to check - now and then,

To see if your relations with Sweden

Are still solid and good?

WHEN you notice, geez, how did they SUDDENLY

Get over to Allies way of thinking! :eek:

Isn't that better than:

Not knowing UNTIL Sweden "activates" as Allied partner?

Thing is, you won't know HOW MANY chits

I've put in there,

So it's an interesting game

Of "cat & mouse"

Where you cannot be SURE

Of... precisely what I've done.

Will your ONE "counter-chit" be sufficient?

You'd have to keep an eye out

To make sure.

But as it is, you're just forcing me to play dip & twiddle with the buttons. And that's poor design.

Different kind of design

Rather than a poor one, IMHO.

[Lars]

So you agree surprise is no longer an issue?

Very good then, you're making progress.

[Desert Dave]

Lars, trying to trick an Innocent:

Very good then, you're making progress.

Yep, out the front door,

As I've got some Docs to consult, not

That it will help

Even one miniscule bit,

Given their "corporate" tendency

To hand me a bunch of BS! :eek:

Well, who knows what will come of this,

Though, truth to tell,

I very often enjoy

Playing "devil's advocate."

With Hubert you just never ever know!

Now, there's a Cat can spring!

Some mighty fine surprises! :cool:

[Yohan]

LOL

Originally posted by Todd Treadway:

Why even have pop-ups at all then? I'd suggest that we disable them altogether so that we have to guess as to what is happening in the game, especially in PBEM. And make sure to get rid of the pop-ups for our destroyed combat units and technology advances as well. Oh, and when the USSR and USA enter the war also. Take those pop-ups out. After all, I do enjoy spending my time (even 90 seconds) looking at the diplomacy screen every turn--and I would love to spend even more looking through all the screens and guessing if units are being destroyed or subs are disrupting convoys.

Umm, isn't this supposed to be a game of making high-level decisions? I think I might have a subordinate telling me about these things (i.e., a pop-up window). If there is any in-between, maybe give us the options to turn on/off these windows such as in Hearts of Iron.

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by Blashy:

Actually it is a good idea to NOT have a pop up telling you the other side had a success.

It makes you keep an eye and track diplomacy.

That's plain silly : it just forces you to to click extra every turn wihout adding anything at all to the gameplay.

Ask any game-developer : idle clicking is bad, bad, bad.

[Blashy]

I agree, but in this case, I don't. Diplomacy is exactly about keeping an eye on things YOURSELF, if you don't, you might be in for a surprise.

It just takes one turn of skipping this menial task to have a surprise next time you check.

Play anygame with a good diplomatic sytem and there is redundant work involved.

[jon_j_rambo]

I agree with the Mob, with the powerful Diplo in this game...now I must check every country every turn for some slippery moves. But I'm a Legend, so that's fine. It will slow down the game a little bit...thank goodness for the timer.

[Yohan]

Originally posted by Blashy:

I agree, but in this case, I don't. Diplomacy is exactly about keeping an eye on things YOURSELF, if you don't, you might be in for a surprise.

It just takes one turn of skipping this menial task to have a surprise next time you check.

Play anygame with a good diplomatic sytem and there is redundant work involved.

Really Blashy, give it a rest. Your strident support is actually hurting your credibility and more importantly that of the game. I sure hope you were open to more thoughts and ideas when you were playtesting.

If everyone checks every turn you have just slowed the game down for no purpose. It is a complete waste. And counting on others to forget is a pretty iffy strategy and if you need it to win you will not be too successful.

[Agamemnon]

I don't check the diplo screen a lot, but I still think their should not be pop-ups. I agree that their should be some suprise.

[Karhu]

That goes for me, too. If anything I think there's almost too much information in the pop-ups sometimes, and so surprises are reduced. As the Axis, not knowing quite when the Siberians hit town would keep you on your toes and help the Allies to spring a trap.

Ditto diplomacy. In the heat of battle it's easy to forget to check for a turn or two and then: oops, where did Sweden go?!

Information gaps all add to the fun.

[jon_j_rambo]

How about a feature to give the player a choice? Sign up for e-mail alerts on Diplo.

[blackbellamy]

I don't understand the argument that forgetting to check the diplo screen is a desireable design feature, to preserve some kind of "surprise" element.

The whole point of computer wargames is to alleviate the bookkeeping tedium of paper wargames, to make record keeping better, and to provide data collated and classified so you the player can be freed from acting as your own personal assistant and can concentrate on the major decisions.

If you were playing SC2 the boardgame, then every turn you and all the other players would roll for diplo effects and say stuff like ok spain shifts two percent and everyone would know what is going on unless they were off getting a sandwich.

On a computer you don't want to obfuscate this process. You want to make it fast but you also want to present the result clearly and easily with the minimum clicking. That's the whole point of UI design (which usually is the weakest point of any wargame).

UI-based information gaps do not add to the fun. Information gaps that are a function of FOW, like enemy reaseach levels, those are fun.

[SeaMonkey]

Look guys, it just one click per turn. One Click!

Isn't this kind of trivial, to save one click. I can't even remember half the time how many MPPs I got in the Summer, Fall, or Winter, for each ally.

By the time I write down the info from the popup I could have "one-clicked" myself to the diplo screen.

I'm clicking on units checking out supply, morale, readiness, HQ attachments, AF modes, movement possibilities, etc. etc. Come on ...one click.

Its no wonder the world can't get along.

[blackbellamy]

No one is complaining about having to click. People love to click. Hell, I'm clicking on some hot Asian porn even as I type this.

People are complaining about poorly presented yet critical information. It's about having to go to a diplo screen and look at a column of 20 numbers and spend time thinking oh did any of them change and I should have written them down last turn because the whole point of computers is to make you write down lists of stuff.

[Retributar]

What about this idea!, have the "Option" for the computer to notify you of 'Diplomatic Changes' each turn!,...so that if you desire, you will no-longer get any ugly suprises!.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by blackbellamy:

No one is complaining about having to click. People love to click. Hell, I'm clicking on some hot Asian porn even as I type this.

People are complaining about poorly presented yet critical information. It's about having to go to a diplo screen and look at a column of 20 numbers and spend time thinking oh did any of them change and I should have written them down last turn because the whole point of computers is to make you write down lists of stuff.

Anyone who has to write this information down just has not played the game enough, say like 5 games...

I don't need to write anything down, it is easy to spot if a change occured.

[jon_j_rambo]

@Blashy --- You need to post some wins son, if you want your testimony to be believable.

[Edwin P.]

Karhu, Great Idea - No POPUPS for Siberian Transfer!

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

Karhu, Great Idea - No POPUPS for Siberian Transfer!

Considering the Axis had enough spies to know about such movement of massive troops, they knew it was coming. The simulates that.

And before you say it Edwin, yes you could always try and script it so there is a 5% chance they do not find out :cool:

[Karhu]

Me, I'd play in Total FOW - no pop-ups at all apart from

1. "WW2 has started", and

2. "WW2 is over. You won/lost".

And you'd need to research intelligence level 2 to get that. Maybe after level 5 you might get "Your subs are seriously lost".

[Hubert Cater]

This can be done in to some extent by simply removing all the #POPUP text in the EVENT scripts. For example, delete the #POPUP text for the Siberian transfer and your opponent will not know it has happened until he sees your units.

[Retributar]

Im foggy on this!...really!, but, didn't those Siberian Troops use Ski's?...not the type for down-hill ski-ing but for cross-country?.

If they did, then i myself wouldn't mind not alway's getting the notification of the 'SIBERIAN TRANSFER', but, would like to see these troops when they appear, wearing their 'Cross Country Ski's'!.

[Rolend]

Originally posted by Lars:

Look, I understand what you're saying, but if you want diplo to work in the game like you seem to think it should, i.e. being a surprise, then the percentages on the screen shouldn't update AT ALL due to opponent's successful actions. Let the player be lulled into a false sense of security until sudden activation.

That would come as a shock.

But as it is, you're just forcing me to play dip & twiddle with the buttons. And that's poor design.

I have to agree with Lars here. If you want Diplo to be secret then if FOW is set take out the %'s in the diplo screen other wise it is just a matter of button pushing and frankly the less buttons I have to push for readly avalible information the better it is.

[Lars]

Originally posted by blackbellamy:

I don't understand the argument that forgetting to check the diplo screen is a desireable design feature, to preserve some kind of "surprise" element.

It's right up there with taking the oil temp gauge off the dash and replacing it with an idiot light.

See, then you get to check the dipstick every time you fill up, or have a "surprise".

Thanks for the "feature", GM. :mad: