I want North America off the map

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

In light of my post on a thread to do with maps, I want to specfically express a concern important to me.

SC is about WW2 conflict simulation, and so too I hope will be SC2.

Until HC designs a game that goes global (and while it would be nice, I am not going to kill myself waiting for him to beat up his game just to do it), I think it is time to firmly make SC2 a game of the war in Europe, and stop wasting time with pipe dream fantasies of Germans marching in the US.

I know WAY to much REAL historical fact, and have WAY to firm a grasp of the ACTUAL potentials of Germany where a North American fantasy are concerned.

Now of course, if you want to play some lunatic game where any frigging country can take over the world of the 1940s, I will ask you to please get lost and go play it to leave us historians alone

With that in mind, I am for taking North America right off the map.

Yes I know, they won't have any cities any more, where will they gate cash from.

That though is a patently silly question.

HC merely has to set exactly what is the economic base of Canada and the US, and it is so.

This could be much more easily and much more credibly dealt with through a menu system than a map symbol representation.

All North America should be, is a source of cash and weapons of war that attempts to thwart the German desire to see it at the bottom of the Atlantic. I would suggest it was easier to simulate a series of coastal staging areas for convoys. Any allied forces headed for the war need only exist when they get shipped out to Europe.

The only thing that would greet a German invader of North America, is several millions of people willing to dump them in the garbage heap of history.

I realise that sounds boastful, but you will just have to get past it.

[CraigRS]

I say keep North AMerica on the map! I always thought of SC as a game about WWII, not a replay of it. Just because the Germans never invaded North America is no reason it can't happen in the game. The never invaded England so should that be gone as well? Part of the fun is being able to decide your own outcome to a war that started in Europe but who says it has to end there? If you want play to remain historical the the Allies win everytime so why play? Just my $.02.........

[CraigRS]

In fact the lack of a "world" map is even more disappointing than the ISO view to me. Well that and the Blitzkrieg name, over used.

[J P Wagner]

No North America would mean an even larger map for Europe, while maintaining Huberts' scale of a 120x38 map....I'm for that.....though seriously doubt it would come to pass....

[CraigRS]

According to what I have seen the map of europe is to scale. If that is the case adding or subtracting NA would not change a thing.

[Hawk]

With the inclusion of a complete map editor, I don't really see the problem. If you don't find the supplied map to your liking, you can always edit it easily enough (or so I hope).

I am definitly going to make my own maps/scenarions as soon as I lay my clammy hands on SC2!

[roman uk]

I say keep US on map.

how else to get:

US forces ferrying over to Europe,

Sub war of North Atlantic

Meglomaniac dreams of taking over the world...

And as JP Wagner said, you could design the map anyway you like. Personally, I'd extend that map, 130x50 to cover the same amount of world territory, to give more oof a Med, and North Africa with a Quatar depression.

[J P Wagner]

I hope more info comes out in the near future about the editor, how it works, AI management, screenshots, ect. because so many people here are designing games in their minds, that it would be a shame if most scenario ideas cannot be realized...right now, I'm more curious about the editor than the game....

[Bill101]

We definitely need North America to correctly recreate the war in the North Atlantic, as aircraft and ships based in North America played a very large role in defeating the U Boats.

However, like you Les I am not keen on Axis invasions of North America, but there might be other ways of stopping or at least discouraging them that could be built into the game:

1) Landing craft are very unlikely to be able to cross the Atlantic without being sunk, as they cannot cope with the long crossing.

2) Several Corps of National Guard automatically mobilise if the Axis land in either Canada or USA.

3) A house rule to prevent landings in North America until France, the UK and USSR have all surrendered to the Axis (one I like to use in SC1, and the beauty is that it requires no game programming).

Perhaps this could be programmed in, as an option, so that Axis units are unable to land in North America before the other main allied countries have surrendered.

I also think that in SC2 it will be easier to defend North America due to the fact that Canada and the USA are now joined together.

[ April 21, 2004, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Bill101 ]

[Desert Dave]

... and North Africa with a Quatar depression.

There are depression tiles.

There will be the Quattara Depression faithfully replicated.

As with some other areas on the screenshots, you are not looking at the fully realized map.

As for room to mech-maneuver and blitz and surround in the heated sands of North Afrika?

There are 5 tiles from fortress Tobruk to the bottom of the game board.

You and Les the Sarge among many others who really like this theatre of the war, are going to have a great old time re-enacting the exciting Desert campaign.

So am I.

[J P Wagner]

5 tiles from Tobruk to the bottom of the map is excellent!

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

Glad to hear desert is being touched up.

To those though that maintain you want "the possibility" of landing in North America, you are playing the wrong game is my conclusion.

It is either a simulation of WW2, or it is a farce. I am not against wide open alternative courses to the war, but if you deep six the credibility of the game, then you never had a ww2 game at all, opened or otherwise.

I am not mandating a virtual recreation of the events, because frankly, I would rather watch my documentaries if that's all I wanted.

But there has to be a limit to the flights of fantasy, or our game becomes a joke.

I can always play Civilization if I want it to be me against the world. And no offense to HC (and I am postive he knows I mean none), but Civilization is years ahead of SC in polish.

But SC isn't Civ, and Civ isn't SC, and I like that they are different.

I recently fired up Civ Conquests and played the Pacific setting game. It looks amazing from a graphic point of view, but the Allies ain't allies, they are all individuals all bent on doing it solo with a marginal "understanding" existing at the start between the nations that you would expect to all be on "your side".

It would be as pointless as trying to play SC where each nation could make or break treaties on a whim.

Anyone here actually think the British could win if the Americans stayed out?

What would happen to Germany if in the middle of attacking Russia, Italy decides France looks nice, and if Germany doesn't like it, then declare war on Germany.

That ain't SC, and while it could happen in Civ, lets face it, the games are not the same game.

One is a depiction of WW2 as close as we can make it, while the other is just played on globe that just happens to look like earth.

There is no basis for putting North Amnerica on the map. Any plane tank ship or other counter can easily stage from what on a map for a board game, would be a utility holding box representative of point of origin.

I know there are a few games out there on drawing boards that will be global. I have also played a few global reaching board games.

Every time I have played a game, one that is global, actual full world map. the war stll continues to maintain credibility, or the worthiness of the game and my interest in it suffers.

I don't think it is saying too much, that even after many years worth of playing even an easy game like Axis and Allies, the Allies had already lost the game an hour ago, if the Axis had any forces on North or South America.

The game was always decided in the snows in Russia, and in the deserts of Africa. And the clincher was linking with the Japanese.

I have read plenty enough to know, that only extreme bull**** luck prevented that scenario happening.

Still confuses me how Hitler lost.

[Bill101]

Les, I'm afraid that I don't understand your latest argument in favour of removing North America.

No one here appears to have argued in favour of Axis landings in North America. As I said, I've never been keen on such things happening.

I have also stated that the Battle of the Atlantic cannot be correctly recreated without North America being on the map, but you haven't answered that point.

The Battle of the Atlantic was won by the allies when the air gap was bridged between North America and the UK, therefore this game needs the ability for aircraft to be stationed in North America.

Likewise, ships on escort duty should be able to refuel and resupply in North American ports - as they did in real life.

[KDG]

Transports now lose readiness while at sea. Thus any attack on the U.S. is going to be severly limited due to this fact.

[pzgndr]

stop wasting time with pipe dream fantasies of Germans marching in the US

A couple of things should stop this in SC2. One, victory conditions may be able to end a game whenever all of the European Allies are defeated. The other thing is the new amphibious transports and loss of supply at sea that will severely limit Axis naval invasion abilities.

We need USA on the map because their resources have to be someplace to be used by the game code. One of Hubert's ideas is to allow resources on the half-tiles, which means they are available for use but cannot otherwise be accessed. So USSR's asian resources and USA's interior resources would be off-hands so to speak.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

If sea supply is interdictable, then any Axis

forces that somehow manage to land will likely

have little/no supply with all those US ships

blocking the supply transports. And I would hope

that the US Navy (Atlantic fleet at least) is

also significantly larger than it was in SC1...

John DiFool

[Lars]

Originally posted by Bill101:

No one here appears to have argued in favour of Axis landings in North America. As I said, I've never been keen on such things happening.

I'll argue in favor of it. I'd hate to see it put in the realm of the impossible.

[Lars]

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:

I can always play Civilization if I want it to be me against the world.

I play Germans if I want it to be me against the world.

Ya know, a random map ala Civ might be kinda fun...

[JerseyJohn]

My first Thread at SC was to remove North America from the map, have it exist away from the action and place Iceland in the northwest corner in it's place. My second Thread was to make the Atlantic more realistic, by removing North America.

So, Les, you're playing my song!

It's also good that we have a map editor and can always alter this aspect to suit our preferances.

I'm visualizing the largest map laid out as it is in the game, except with all of that in the eastern section and the Atlantic being very, very large with all the (few and scattered) major islands capable of serving as bases, such as the Azores, Canaries, Cape Verde and Iceland, and seeing how that plays. No doubt it will be a lot of trouble and probably not worth the effort, but it's an idea.

[KDG]

Use the editor and put a fortress in every square, put partisons on high, and this should make it next to impossible to conquer when combined with the new supply system for transports.

[JerseyJohn]

Yes, and that sounds pretty reasonable.

I'd start all of them off ungarrisoned as in every case they'd need to be reinforced before being anything like the game scale of corps / army level.

Not certain of the scale, but I'm also wondering if adapting it this way wouldn't reach west as far as Nova Scotian in the north and perhaps parts of Florida and the Carribean in the south. I doubt it does in literal geographic terms but a little condensing to include some of those places would still leave a huge Atlantic.

[Blashy]

Stop asking for map changes.

Geez, HC has made a thourough editor, you don't like his map, make a mod to your liking.

But stop asking him to make changes to the map, you have an editor, start editing.

I wanted a full WW2 game, he did not do that but he listened to us about a VERY extensive editor and now that I know I can do one myself, I ain't complaining.