Survey: How much should they charge for SC2?

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Exel:

Christmas sales really aren't the Holy Grail of gaming industry as most (even game devs and publishers) seem to think. True, there's a lot of money going around that time of the year, but there's helluva lot of competition as well. For big releases Christmas is a gold mine, but smaller releases - which SC2 certainly is - tend to go down with the mass. Random Christmas shopper will buy the high-profile multi-million marketed EA product that has meters and meters of shelf space. Small releases have better chances for making profit in the other times of the year. That's the fact.

Take a look at any marketing/sales survey and you will see that the biggest profits earned by most retailers is at Christmas. This is when most people spend their money, including when they buy computer games.

I would not advocate this approach for most wargames.

However, SC2 is different. It offers wide appeal, similar to HoI and Axis & Allies.

It is NOT a niche wargame, like UV or some of Tiller's wargames might be.

Cheers!

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Moon:

Kelly's Heroes, I disagree with everything that you wrote, and the fact that we're here, that SC2 will become reality this year, and that Hubert didn't sign up with EA Games to publish SC2 prove that you're wrong.

No, "not 20 months for North American release", the game will be available by mail-order, simple as that.

No, we're not cutting our profits considerably, quite the contrary, but this isn't a place to show you profit calculations.

No, you're not out of pocket a lot of money because even with shipping and duty (IF you get charged duty and taxes at all; that's a bit of luck depending on the customer officers inspecting your package) the game will be only as much as a regular full price retail release. And heck, maybe we will offer a download, who knows.

And no, the game won't be "reduced in price" in 20 months but will cost precisely as much as we will want it to cost to reach a retail mass audience.

Anyway, we've talked about this before I remember, so I won't repeat myself. Just read what Exel and some others (heck, even Rambo) wrote here.

Martin

Well, I'm not surprised that you disagree - heheh.

Hey, it's your game; but my money. . .

The reality is that SC2 won't be available to the general public in NA for 20 months. Meaning that a one year old game will arrive on retail shelves for the same price in 2005.

Yes, it will be available via mail order, but again, MOST people will be unaware of this fact. Again, only a small niche crowd will be aware of this fact, thus limiting sales.

The number one business rule is to get your product to the customer. Make it as easy as possible. Give it exposure; volume is the key.

It is quite presumptuous of you to tell me that shipping and duty will not affect my buying decision, because I am telling you that it WILL affect my buying decision.

This $35.00 game would cost me $70.00 or $80.00 Canadian with exchange/taxes/duty/shipping included. This goes beyond my game purchasing threshold, as it does for thousands of others.

I would not advocate going retail for most wargames, because they appeal to a specific wargame crowd, such as TOAW, UV, etc.

But SC2 is different - it offers WIDE appeal (which is what Hubert intended), such as HoI and Axis & Allies does, and you should cash in on that fact. Even most non-wargamers want to play a big strategy game that offers lots of decision-making.

As I mentioned, the approach you are taking for marketing SC2, is simply the wrong approach.

However, Matrix will be publishing WiTP in June and WaW later in the year (both games will be available at retail) and I will be buying them instead.

Then, in October, 2005, when SC2 is fully patched, and when there are lots of scenarios to enjoy, I will buy that game at retail.

Cheers!

[ April 14, 2004, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Kelly's Heroes ]

[Exel]

Offers wide appeal? Hardly. Even HoI had a very limited target audience if compared to really major releases, and no matter how much I like SC, I can't picture it to reach quite as large an audience as HoI did.

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Exel:

Offers wide appeal? Hardly. Even HoI had a very limited target audience if compared to really major releases, and no matter how much I like SC, I can't picture it to reach quite as large an audience as HoI did.

HoI is a big success despite how buggy that game was at release.

Despite HoI's problems, people still play it because they want a big strategy wargame to play.

Just visit Paradox's forums and you'll see for yourself.

SC2 looks to be far superior to hoI.

Maybe SC won't reach a large target audience, but SC2 will.

I have played wargames for a couple of decades now; played them all. I've been in business; seen what works and what has failed.

And I am also aware of what people want today; they want a big strategy wargame like SC2.

Why do you think Matrix is making UV, WiTP, WaW and EiA? Because people are tired of the RTS craze.

Sometimes we need to think outside the box. . .

Cheers!

[Moon]

Kelly's Heroes, I like your sig line.

"I know nothing" - Little Gaffer

I will end this by repeating what I said at the end of our last discussion about this - you're happy (in 20 months), we're happy, heck even Matrix will be happy, things are working as they should.

Martin

[Exel]

Originally posted by Kelly's Heroes:

HoI is a big success -- Just visit Paradox's forums and you'll see for yourself.

Hehe. Funny you should mention it. Haven't you ever run into some "Exel" guy on those forums? I used to do a whole lot of modding for the game, and was even in the Beta dev team for a while doing the 1.06 patch.

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Moon:

Kelly's Heroes, I like your sig line. </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"I know nothing" - Little Gaffer

I will end this by repeating what I said at the end of our last discussion about this - you're happy (in 20 months), we're happy, heck even Matrix will be happy, things are working as they should.

Martin </font>

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Exel:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kelly's Heroes:

HoI is a big success -- Just visit Paradox's forums and you'll see for yourself.

Hehe. Funny you should mention it. Haven't you ever run into some "Exel" guy on those forums? I used to do a whole lot of modding for the game, and was even in the Beta dev team for a while doing the 1.06 patch. </font>

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

I have a secret weapon, her name is Margaret

She's a gal I know in the US.

If my only choice is to purchase via online, no sweat, I have my secret weapon.

I will NOT be getting screwed by customs.

Canada Customs can sit on this and rotate

I don't mind paying a reasonable cost for shipping, but I ain't getting double dipped at the border.

I never pay more than a couple of extra bucks for remailing from the US.

I sure ain't waiting a year or so for retail on the shelf for the game.

Sure SC is now on sale for a nice 19 bucks, and no doubt SC2 will "someday" be the same.

Screw some day I say hehe.

You guys might know yer warfare, but sometimes I think you guys forget there are a lot of ways to skin a cat.

[roman uk]

Do a good job and I'll pay for it, 10-20 quid +/-doesnt really make much of a difference either way. As someone above said so eloquently, a good game you'll play for years, but most end up in the bin. Perhaps thats why 35-50 makes sense; too many throw aways and too few keepers.

The Id guys made a lot of money via direct sales (remember the Doom revolution?). Id rather give the money to you the game makers then the middle men.

..editor, weather, increased units, events,etc.

Please make the supply rules harsh: allow your units to be out of supply to your peril!

Mobile forces, supply, projection of force, good and bad guys; WW2 is great subject matter.

Cheers

[ April 14, 2004, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: roman uk ]

[Yohan]

Originally posted by Moon:

We're looking currently at a $35 release, though it's not written in stone at this point. If you get 10,000 people to post here that they'd buy it for $50, then the price might go up

Downloadable... probably not, but heck, who knows.

Martin

Make it downloadable and I'll pay $40 no probs

[Night]

20 months to the North American release?!?!!

I really don't think I'll still be interested in this after another Year and a half... That is really really ridicilous.

[Exel]

Originally posted by Kelly's Heroes:

With the latest patch (v1.06) and with CORE, I may just re-install the game again, and give it a whirl.

The CORE Mod now has 1600 NEW events which should spice up HoI quite a bit.

I would recommend the Starfire mod instead. It puts the emphasis on historical accuracy and reworks the combat system in a truly outstanding way! :eek: CORE is a big ahistorical mess...

[/offtopic]

[Sombra]

@ KH ... If you have time drop by the forums of stardock another small publisher. Like Battlefront they prefer selling their games directly. Their reasons are simple: They win as much as 8x times direct order vs. retail up to 10x when the customer downloads their programms. If you are going retail as a small company you have to look for a good publisher, sometimes problems arise to claim your share etc. Games like SC have a pretty much hardcore following though the targeted customer groups are pretty much aware of the games Battlefront offers.

[Exel]

Originally posted by Sombra:

They win as much as 8x times direct order vs. retail up to 10x when the customer downloads their programms. If you are going retail as a small company you have to look for a good publisher, sometimes problems arise to claim your share etc. Games like SC have a pretty much hardcore following though the targeted customer groups are pretty much aware of the games Battlefront offers.

True, but on the other hand the game might reach a larger audience by retail sales, and thus the overall profit might just become bigger than by safe but limited direct online sales. Paradox is another small publisher, and it has taken the retail route and done remarkably well considering the rather niche target group of their games. Direct sales may produce more prefit per copy, but they wont attract potential buyers beyond those who are already aware of Battlefront.com or read quality gaming mags / sites. Retail sales can reach those all-important "random" buyers.

[jon_j_rambo]

Looks like I need to clean up an issue, make solid comments, & do my job: "Not available in North America for 18-20 months" --- What the hell (heaven) are you talking about? "Are you stupid or something" ---from Forrest Gump. The promo info says Q4-2004, what do I care about retail sales as a customer, I already found out SC online. Kelly'sHereos, breakout your debit card & order the thing you cheap bastard. If you sit around waiting for the retail version, I'll be playing SC3-Pacific by then

The retailer steals all the money, you dummies. BF can drink mountain dew & burn CD's themselves, why give the cheese to them if you're BF? You want BF to make jack, so they'll crank out some cool games for us. Else, Hubert has to work for 'da Man (EA-Electronic Arts). If Hubert was working commerical rather than the little guys, some idiot manager would have him making "Barbie's new skatepark", a 25,000,000 seller, but no real strategy wargames.

Walmart (biggest market cap companey on the planet, a retailer for you Euros), doesn't pay their bills for 6-months. You gotta have some deep pockets to work that chain before the game even begins.

Far as custom's & duty for foreigners to buy US products, I think that's great! I'm glad you foriengers are paying out the ass by YOUR government. You foreingers work for peanuts, trying to undercut our jobs: India, China, Mexico, Russia, whatever.......screw you, enjoy the socialist taxes. European Union cries all the time about American Monopolies, pattons, copyrights, labor laws, etc... You must protect the inventors, give incentives, & let the Capitalist Model work. Far as Canada, you guys brag about your Healthcare & cut ours down....sure, because you pay taxes out the ass. Uncle Sam screws me enough, but not that bad. I wish Uncle Sam & George Bush would put some Terifs (pun intended) on your products coming into the States.

Rambo knows Distribution Sales

Rambo knows High Finance

Rambo knows alot of stuff

[ April 15, 2004, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[Exel]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Far as custom's & duty for foreigners to buy US products, I think that's great! I'm glad you foriengers are paying out the ass by YOUR government. You foreingers work for peanuts, trying to undercut our jobs: India, China, Mexico, Russia, whatever.......screw you, enjoy the socialist taxes. European Union cries all the time about American Monopolies, pattons, copyrights, labor laws, etc... You must protect the inventors, give incentives, & let the Capitalist Model work. Far as Canada, you guys brag about your Healthcare & cut ours down....sure, because you pay taxes out the ass. Uncle Sam screws me enough, but not that bad. I wish Uncle Sam & George Bush would put some Terifs (pun intended) on your products coming into the States.

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

"I really don't think I'll still be interested in this after another Year and a half... That is really really ridicilous."

Hmm, I can't relate to that.

I don't buy games unless they are timeless.

By that I mean, if this game came out today or in 5 years, I would either like it or not like it.

And if I like it, I will buy it.

But I will only buy games if i can buy them, and still like them even if I have had it 5 years.

If HC had no plans to release SC2, it would only mean I would still be playing SC1 5 years from now.

I bought all 4 versions of Heroes of Might and Magic eh. If they had never done anything after the first one, I would still enjoy playing it.

Darned fun game.

But 2, then 3 (with a lot of add ons) and then 4 were always "better" in some way. True the company was shamelessly milking the fans, but the game IS still always improved.

It might have just been cosmetically enhanced, but it was still always better.

And it was my choice whether or not to pay for it after all.

The only danger with doddling on a game, is the risk someone else might see your current creation and say hmm not bad, I can improve on that, and then do it.

Wait to long, and someone steals your thunder.

I have actually seen a few cases where you snooze you lose has happened.

[Bill101]

Rambo wrote:

"If you sit around waiting for the retail version, I'll be playing SC3-Pacific by then".

Hopefully we'll all be playing it by then!

I think some of the critics miss the point. Battlefront's marketing strategy works, and the success of Combat Mission is the proof.

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Exel:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sombra:

They win as much as 8x times direct order vs. retail up to 10x when the customer downloads their programms. If you are going retail as a small company you have to look for a good publisher, sometimes problems arise to claim your share etc. Games like SC have a pretty much hardcore following though the targeted customer groups are pretty much aware of the games Battlefront offers.

True, but on the other hand the game might reach a larger audience by retail sales, and thus the overall profit might just become bigger than by safe but limited direct online sales. Paradox is another small publisher, and it has taken the retail route and done remarkably well considering the rather niche target group of their games. Direct sales may produce more prefit per copy, but they wont attract potential buyers beyond those who are already aware of Battlefront.com or read quality gaming mags / sites. Retail sales can reach those all-important "random" buyers. </font>

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Bill101:

Rambo wrote:

"If you sit around waiting for the retail version, I'll be playing SC3-Pacific by then".

Hopefully we'll all be playing it by then!

I think some of the critics miss the point. Battlefront's marketing strategy works, and the success of Combat Mission is the proof.

Heheh. . .

I won't be sitting around waiting for the retail version.

I not only have lots of great games to play, but there are many wargames that are going to be released this year by Matrix, that will appear at retail or through their distributors, and which I will be buying.

Combat Mission is a wargamer's wargame. And it has done well among wargamers.

SC2 is intended to reach a wider audience.

Cheers!

[Kelly's Heroes]

Here's a little marketing research to show how important Christmas shopping is to retailers.

The importance of Christmas sales to retailers and manufacturers is no secret -- for some retailers, holiday sales can contribute as much as 40% of their profits.

http://www.marketresearch.com/map/prod/952795.html

As most people would expect, Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) figures show shopping peaks in December. Last year retail spending increased in December compared to November, and was up by 27% overall. The largest increases occurred in department stores (up 77%), in clothing and soft goods retailing (up 47%), and in recreational goods retailing (up 35%).

http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/19b46935e2dc13beca256b2c00004b40?OpenDocument

[Exel]

Kelly's Heroes: Please read my post about Christmas sales on the first page of this thread, 22nd post. Christmas sales are great for big releases, but smaller ones get easily run over by the huge marketing campaigns of the bigger ones.

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Exel:

Kelly's Heroes: Please read my post about Christmas sales on the first page of this thread, 22nd post. Christmas sales are great for big releases, but smaller ones get easily run over by the huge marketing campaigns of the bigger ones.

Heheh. . .

Towards the end of November and throughout all of December, visit any EB and/or computer software section of Walmart, and you will have all your consumer sales questions answered.

Literally everything is sold off the shelves.

The hot ticket is video games.

Example:

Two brothers (aged 16 and 18) go into Walmart with their parents in December. The two brothers have played Axis and Allies for a couple of years.

The older brother spots the cover art of SC2. Hmmm, it looks very similar to wargames they have already played. Cool box. Cool art.

The younger brother becomes interested.

The two brothers hint around to their parents that they would like this game for Christmas.

Bingo! Another sale of SC2.

Later, the two brothers spread the word among all their friends about this great new strategic wargame - it's like Axis and Allies, but cooler. . .

And so on, and so on, and so on. . .

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of sales is still done at the retail level.

Between 60% to 75% of ALL shoppers still have concerns about shopping online.

Those two brothers who bought SC2 would never have bought the game online, since neither knew about Battlefront nor owned a credit card.

Cheers!

[Kelly's Heroes]

In fact I would take SC2 to the next logical level:

Turn it into a board game and make it available at the retail level in stores like Walmart and Toys R Us.

I think it would compete nicely with other board games such as Axis and Allies.

Cheers!