Artillery spotters now "slow". Why?

[Lt. Kije]

I'm surprised nobody has brought this up. Seems like a big change to me. Artillery spotters are now generally classified as "slow". The most important result of this is they tire very rapidly. They are often unable to sprint across an open gap from cover to cover, falling to the ground Tired half way across. I've seen them shift from Rested to Tiring in a matter of a few meters.

Now, my Dad was a WWII forward observer. I have his field glasses on the table in front of me. They are not that heavy. Why the (new in CMBB, I believe) classification of my Dad as "slow"? He was actually pretty fit, even in his old age.

I did note that a spotter team with radio is "medium" rather than "slow". Leads me to hypothesize that the non-radio guys are unspooling communication wire as they move. Was this all that tiring? (My Dad of course had a radioman, so I never heard stories about wire spools.) And were radios so rare in the German army that a spotter with radio costs substantially more than a plain spotter?

Of course, I've only had CMBB for a couple of days. Maybe there are a lot of spotters who are "fast", as I recall all of them were in CMBO. Or not. I haven't got that far.

Any thoughts about this? Any official pronouncements explaining it?

Seems like a big change to me. I kinda like my forward observer units and hate seeing them Tired all the time.

-- Lt. Kije

Join Us For the Seattle Rain Festival!

October 1 through July 30

[rune]

If it doesn't say radio, then they are also laying the wire to their new position.

Rune

[tabpub]

I think the price not only reflects the movement ablility, but also the "flexibility" of the radio. You can be transported in a vehicle w/ radio, not with wire. I don't believe that you are allowed to call fire from vehicle still, will have to check. I am curious also to the use of the radio AC on the German screen that I saw once. Will have to look over that as well.

[-E]

Originally posted by Lt. Kije:

Now, my Dad was a WWII forward observer. I have his field glasses on the table in front of me. They are not that heavy. Why the (new in CMBB, I believe) classification of my Dad as "slow"? He was actually pretty fit, even in his old age.

I believe all CMBO parent models incorporate anti-hero/parent-worship logarithms that incorrectly cloud the player's impressions of capabilities. Keep in mind that the sequel (Toy Story: Beyond The Crib (aka TS:BTC)) will have the opposite game effect on one's children.

[Redwolf]

Slow artillery observeres (non-radio) must get functionality to get out of trouble quickly. It is funny to assume they pick up all the wire behind them when there is a human wave of SMG squads oncoming. Yeah I know this is probably the same issue as an abandon command for guns, but it is even more serious here, IMHO. Maybe you can make them react to "withdrawln" with full running speed. I don't think that will be abused for gamey tricks to get them into good positions much.

[KNac]

I'm with Redwolf in this one. Is common sense, that thopse guys would abandon unnecessary equipment and run under "serious problems".

However, maybe that wopuld make them lose the spotting capabilies (ammo=0 in-game), what do you think?

[Dirtweasle]

Wow, had not noticed this yet...

How about giving them a set-up time? They should be able to run with the spool of commo wire, get to their spot and then take a little time to set up. That would seem realistic to me.

[tabpub]

They can run, they will just tire "real" fast...the radio will take longer to tire. The +/- to the wire/radio seem to be:

wire: slow, shorter TOT (time on target), can't get on vehicle.

radio: faster, longer TOT, can ride vehicle but cannot call mission while onboard.

Ex. took 2 41 german 81mm spotters. wire 1min to area in LOS, radio 2min to area in LOS

sidebar: what is the function of the 223 radio AC? Just another AC with only a MG? What is (if any) gain from having the radio on board? Now if a spotter could ride with and call shots using that radio, there would be some functionality for it in my mind. Unfortunately, you can't....

[Sabrewolf]

hehehe im picturing in my mind the spotters tripping over themselves when their wire got stuck while running through the woods

[Lt. Kije]

Hey, wait just a minute here. As was just pointed out by tabpub, non-radio spotters cannot be transported by halftrack. As it happens, I was just puzzling over this in a QB I'm currently engaged in.

Please, someone, explain to me what kind of wire it is that a two man spotter team routinely runs around a battlefield that is not transportable by a halftrack that can carry an entire squad?

Could this spotter team with wire be carried by a full truck? (I'll have to try that in the next QB, right after these 1000 suprisingly robust and resilient so-called 'conscripts' finish kicking my German company's heinie.) If not, I really must insist on a photo of the magic pouch used by the two man spotter team to carry all that wire that the truck cannot. Was it only the Germans who had the magic pouch? In which year was it released? Did it have, as an option, a tripod?

Wait! Wait! I get it. Tell me if this is right -- it's a towering _ball_ of wire! That's it! That explains why it can be moved about the battlefield but not transported in a halftrack.

The actual forward observer, being an officer, would not touch the thing. His job is to make decisions, not deploy wire. The second team member, the assistant, a rough man of low character, has been carefully selected. He is burly and agile. Through extensive training he has learned how to sort of herd the great hulking ball of wire across the battlefield, jabbing at it constantly with a pointed stick.

At no time would the two man team even try to execute the Embark maneuver. Stories would have been passed around back at the Training Camp about the grim results of such attempts in the days between the wars, when "Volkswirenjugend Recreational Alpine Holiday" groups would assemble for a week at a time, engaging in "Grosse Ballenrollen" outdoor exercises.

Any photos out there on the Web?

-- Lt. Kije

Baffled. Always baffled.

[Ben Galanti]

Umm... I think it's the fact that the wire has to be connected to something on the other end, and that driving around in a vehicle without losing that connection would be pretty hard to do...

Ben

[Sergei]

The phone wire is carried by a guy on a reel on his back, so that when he runs, the wire is being left behind. If you've seen Enemy At Gates, then you have seen dem Zermans trying to repair a broken phone wire. Or if you're still in doubt, join the Finnish Army as an artillery FO, and you'll get plenty of experience about going around with 'em.

[Lt. Kije]

All right. I give. The wire is attached at one end. When you start with that detail the rest of the picture pretty much paints itself.

-- Lt. Kije

Dim But Educable

[WWB]

Originally posted by redwolf:

Slow artillery observeres (non-radio) must get functionality to get out of trouble quickly. It is funny to assume they pick up all the wire behind them when there is a human wave of SMG squads oncoming. Yeah I know this is probably the same issue as an abandon command for guns, but it is even more serious here, IMHO. Maybe you can make them react to "withdrawln" with full running speed. I don't think that will be abused for gamey tricks to get them into good positions much.

If they do run away without the wire, than they are useless as spotters anyhow. So why bother?

[Pak40]

Originally posted by KNac:

I'm with Redwolf in this one. Is common sense, that thopse guys would abandon unnecessary equipment and run under "serious problems".

However, maybe that wopuld make them lose the spotting capabilies (ammo=0 in-game), what do you think?

I agree also. But, they would also have a jeep typically. All battalion, regimental, divisional and corp level artillery spotters would be officers and they would definitly have access to a jeep for their spotting duties, although they wouldn't necessarily be ablt to travel everywhere in a jeep.

[John Kettler]

Unfortunately for some of the logic on display here, wire was laid from vehicles during World War II. I've seen it done in imagery of jeeps, trucks, even German motorcycles with sidecars. Granted, an FO using wire for communications shouldn't be able to race around the battlefield as his radio counterpart is wont to do, but neither should he, in my view, be denied vehicular movement altogether. The jury's out on how fast a field phone equipped FO team should get tired, though. Certainly, as noted the other day on History Channel's "Mail Call," the radio an FO used was not

either small or lightweight. The ones I've seen were pretty big and heavy.

Regards,

John Kettler

[tabpub]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

Unfortunately for some of the logic on display here, wire was laid from vehicles during World War II. I've seen it done in imagery of jeeps, trucks, even German motorcycles with sidecars. Granted, an FO using wire for communications shouldn't be able to race around the battlefield as his radio counterpart is wont to do, but neither should he, in my view, be denied vehicular movement altogether.

I'm sure that wire being laid from one REMF's hooch to another can use MC's, Jeeps, donkeys, whatever; but I would dearly love to see some guy calling fire that needs to move cautiously up to the next clump of woods 100m away firing up the jeep to zip over there with his cable...I think I would desert before I did that. :eek:

[fwilli001]

sidebar: what is the function of the 223 radio AC? Just another AC with only a MG? What is (if any) gain from having the radio on board? Now if a spotter could ride with and call shots using that radio, there would be some functionality for it in my mind. Unfortunately, you can't....

I am also wondering what the use of these radio cars is. If the FO can't use them than why would I waste points to puchase one. Are they just in there for authenticity and all that? Anybody know this one?

[Cameroon]

Actually, the wish I have is entirely related to convenience. I want a graphic representation on the status bar of wire/radio. It's a real PITA to open the detail window when all I want to know is radio or not

[Guest Sgt. Emren]

Thanks for the laugh, Lt. Kije!! I had a great picture of the Ball of Death in my mind. Too bad I didn´t have a good screenie program at hand...

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Cameroon:

Actually, the wish I have is entirely related to convenience. I want a graphic representation on the status bar of wire/radio. It's a real PITA to open the detail window when all I want to know is radio or not

And I want the non-radio spotters to leave a real phone line behind them, so that a partisan team can sneak into rear and snip off the wire. And radios to have problems during bad weather (or aurora borealis).

Actually I think BFC should make a grand strategy game involving in and around the problems of communications during WW2. Enigmas, letters from home, radio silences, Tokyo Rose, everything.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Pak40:

I agree also. But, they would also have a jeep typically. All battalion, regimental, divisional and corp level artillery spotters would be officers and they would definitly have access to a jeep for their spotting duties, although they wouldn't necessarily be ablt to travel everywhere in a jeep.

Well, what if their 'spotting duties' do take them beyond the point where you can take a jeep? Which is going to be the case 9 times out of 10, since it is a very bad idea to motor up to the point from which you want to observe - remember, if you can see them, they can see you.

Also, I would be interested in the German TO&E that you have that says all spotters had access to a Kuebelwagen (let alone a jeep). Or the Soviet one for that matter. Seems a very sweeping, and quite incorrect statement to me.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by wwb_99:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by redwolf:

Slow artillery observeres (non-radio) must get functionality to get out of trouble quickly. It is funny to assume they pick up all the wire behind them when there is a human wave of SMG squads oncoming. Yeah I know this is probably the same issue as an abandon command for guns, but it is even more serious here, IMHO. Maybe you can make them react to "withdrawln" with full running speed. I don't think that will be abused for gamey tricks to get them into good positions much.

If they do run away without the wire, than they are useless as spotters anyhow. So why bother?</font>

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

an FO using wire for communications shouldn't be able to race around the battlefield as his radio counterpart is wont to do, but neither should he, in my view, be denied vehicular movement altogether.

You're correct, of course, about the use of vehicles for laying wire, but at the CM scale I think most sensible FO's would have dismounted, otherwise they're making themselves an obvious target.

[buckshyesh]

Are FOs with wire subject to losing contact, at least temporarily, if they are in an area that is hit by enemy arty?

Is that problem abstracted by a permanent or temporary loss of targeting ability?