Infantry AI test - due to Madmatt's request.

[Bone_Vulture]

Ok, here's a series of screenshots I took to prove the infantry simulated stupidity. Infantry only, 600 points, June '43, midday. Defending with Heer.

So, let's begin. I've set up a Jäger platoon in tall pines, all hiding, no cover arcs. Includes a single flamethrower and an out-of-command squad from another platoon for test purposes. The Soviet horde is incoming from up/right.

First stupidity stunt: a squad at the front opens fire at roughly 20 meters - but it's aiming at a squad heading AWAY from the forest, instead of the squad that's running straight at 'em!

Ok, so now the two squads in the front have engaged the enemy. The rest of the platoon remains silent, including the HQ team. As it should be.

But what the hell happens?! A veteran HQ team decides to open it's "massive" arsenal at an isolated enemy 80 METERS AWAY! The HQ hasn't been spotted, or fired upon.

Let's observe the situation from another angle. Next to the forest, the Company HQ is hiding with a heavy MG42 team. Again, no cover arcs.

They do have the intelligence to lay low, considering that the Soviet spearhead is running past 'em... Right?

Well of course not! The Company HQ decides to test it's mettle at a throng of Russians from a "reasonable" range of 90 meters! Maybe the platoon HQ was just following their example? Well, at least the HMG joins in the firing.

And finally, the fresh 'n green flamethrower team reaps the official Wehrmacht solidarity award for frying their kameraden with a careless burst of burning death.

Well then. I hope this is enough to demonstrate the mysterious "ambushing HQ teams turn suicidal" phenomena. I'll be happy to provide you with more crappy screenshots, if you're not convinced. (And yes, I had to compress the damn pics so they'll fit the bandwidth & space of the Homestead account...)

[Zulu]

Just a quick thought.

"First stupidity stunt: a squad at the front opens fire at roughly 20 meters - but it's aiming at a squad heading AWAY from the forest, instead of the squad that's running straight at 'em!"

You deployed the squad in tall pines. Did you check los on the 2 incoming squads? The German squad in question may not have had los on the incoming Soviet squad because of the pines and instead fired on the threat, which was the other Soviet squad in the open.

20m is not that far and you can spot fairly well into pines so it would take pretty good fire discipline not to open up on the threat.

Seems pretty reasonable AI to me.

[Bone_Vulture]

I checked the LOS: the squad had a clear LOS for over 20 meters in a full 180 degree arc in front of it.

[Renaud]

Bone,

The problem you are having is not one that affects me for one reason or another. Can't see if you specified covered arcs or not. Try specifying a tiny (or no) covered arc and hide the PLT leader unit. In my experience they won't open fire till someone steps on them, sometimes not even then. However if they are close enough to get supressed or panicked by area fire or fire on nearby troops, they may freak out and open fire.

I do note that you could have placed your double-leadership-bonus PLT leader about 3 times as far back as you did and still be in command range. That would affect this particular test, but if you had a regular leader then you would have to place him close like you did.

Good luck champ.

Ren

edit: ah, I see you mention no covered arcs. In that case, try a tiny covered arc pointed AWAY from the enemy. I've done that before.

[ October 25, 2002, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Renaud ]

[kenfedoroff]

Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

[QB]Ok, here's a series of screenshots I took to prove the infantry simulated stupidity. Infantry only, 600 points, June '43, midday. Defending with Heer.........[END QUOTE]

-------------------------------------------------

Just Curious. Are you playing the computer when this happened, or a human opponent?

Sincerely,

Ken

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Renaud:

I do note that you could have placed your double-leadership-bonus PLT leader about 3 times as far back as you did and still be in command range.

I highly doubt that. LOS and suppression affect the HQ's command range, and on this map, there was no suitable cover any farther. I don't think I could've placed the HQ farther than several "tiles" away without breaking off from the squads in the front.

edit: ah, I see you mention no covered arcs. In that case, try a tiny covered arc pointed AWAY from the enemy. I've done that before.

*sigh* Thanks, but that's a surrogate solution. I want it fixed, so that hidden teams will not open fire unless there's an enemy within a distance of 20-30 meters, they've got a cover arc, or they're fired upon.

[ October 25, 2002, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Bone_Vulture ]

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by kenfedoroff:

Just Curious. Are you playing the computer when this happened, or a human opponent?

I don't think any human would launch such a clumsy infantry assault... I played against the computer.

[MrNoobie]

I don't think any human would launch such a clumsy infantry assault

i know i would, im no good at this game

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by MrNoobie:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I don't think any human would launch such a clumsy infantry assault

i know i would, im no good at this game </font>

[kenfedoroff]

Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by kenfedoroff:

Just Curious. Are you playing the computer when this happened, or a human opponent?

I don't think any human would launch such a clumsy infantry assault... I played against the computer. </font>

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by kenfedoroff:

I was wondering if this stuff only happens when playing against the computer A/I ?

Again, i doubt it, as there should be no effect on troop AI whether you're playing against the computer or a human. I'll test the theory as soon as my friends have time to play against me.

[ October 25, 2002, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Bone_Vulture ]

[Renaud]

Command range for a double-star is like 110m with LOS, 2/3rd that with without LOS depending on how much is in the way, I think. That's for a captain, may be less for a PLT ldr (don't remember if there is a diff). Well I guess you checked the command ranges since you obviously set up the scenario and played it.

However if you have no terrain yes you're screwed there. But isn't that the tip of a hut I see there in the lower left corner of the first screeny?

Now I am curious to take a look as well when I get home.

Ren

[Madmatt]

Well the 20 meter engagement issue I don't see a problem, a target gets that close you have to expect, in tall pines, that you might get spotted so it makes sense to engage.

Now, what I am going to have a look at though in my own tests is wheter or not the HQ's are popping cover too soon and opening up when hiding.

Last time I did a test of this in full was during the beta and back then I was seeing units literally allowing the enemy to get within 5 meters before unhiding. I was not aware of any tweaks to that but I will certainly have a look.

Do you see the hidden HQ's popping up in all sorts of terrain or just tall pines?

Does it seem that, all things being equal, HQ's will unhide before squads when faced with an enemy unit at the same range?

I know you seem hesitant to use covered arcs, but since you want your troops to only engage at about 20-30 meters you really should use them. If you do set a cover arc at say 20 meters, willthe HQ still unhide too soon?

You can't keep saying "well it didnt happen in CMBO" becuase this isnt CMBO, there are a lot more commands now and the HIDE command is different than it used to be. It is *supposed* to be more like a true hide, with faces in the dirt and low situational awareness but if the HQ's are unhiding early, consistently, when no one else can see the enemy units then it will need to be looked into.

Don't forget that borg spotting will also have a hand in this. I will have some tests run over the weekend and see what I can find.

Madmatt

[von Lucke]

I've found that if you want to maintain fire discipline in CMBB, covered arcs are not optional, they are mandatory --- pretty much for all of the reasons you demonstrate.

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

Do you see the hidden HQ's popping up in all sorts of terrain or just tall pines?

Obviously I try to keep the HQ in good cover whenever possible. As far as I can remember, rhis has also happened when the unit was in woods / scattered trees.

Does it seem that, all things being equal, HQ's will unhide before squads when faced with an enemy unit at the same range?

Oh dear Lord, yes!

I know you seem hesitant to use covered arcs, but since you want your troops to only engage at about 20-30 meters you really should use them. If you do set a cover arc at say 20 meters, willthe HQ still unhide too soon?

No. But does this mean I'm forced to place a cover arc for every unit behind the immediate front lines, just to be insured that they won't go suicidal? That's not the way it should be.

It is *supposed* to be more like a true hide, with faces in the dirt and low situational awareness but if the HQ's are unhiding early, consistently, when no one else can see the enemy units then it will need to be looked into.

That is how it happens. I'd be most happy if you'd look into this.

[Sir_Zippy]

I have just played a quick game that seemed to demonstrate the HQ unhiding before any other platoon member. Random pick gave me green finnish troops.

I had 2 platoons set up in 2 seperate trenches, both of them placed behind pines in different locations.

All units could see through the pines and were hidden with no cover arcs assigned.

At a range of roughly 100 m's both seperate HQ units popped up and opened fire on the advancing russian hordes.

None of the other squad members of either platoon fired a shot and remained hidden despite what appeared to be identical LOS to the HQ's.

I was forced to open up early with the rest of the platoons as a T34 had now got a bead on 1 of the HQ's. Exactly why it was instructed to hide!!!

They WERE green troops, and no, I hadn't used the cover arcs. I've also not played too many games with CMBB yet though have played CMBO to death. Does seem to re-create the situation in this post though.

[Rickovich]

I just want to second Bone's observations.Playing vs my neighbor almost every night so this is player vs player in my experience.HQ's will pop up their heads before the squads under their command.Terrain hasn't seemed to make much difference in this.I'm constantly on the lookout for these HQ's that have an aversion to their face in the dirt.Mostly(depending on what else is going on)I cancel their target and re-hide or if need be sneak a small distance with a hide at the end.And yes CA's do help but it's not a good solution.Anyways just wanted to add in on this topic...

[kenfedoroff]

Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by kenfedoroff:

I was wondering if this stuff only happens when playing against the computer A/I ?

Again, i doubt it, as there should be no effect on troop AI whether you're playing against the computer or a human. I'll test the theory as soon as my friends have time to play against me.</font>

[demoss]

The big drawback of covered arcs is that they don't go past 180 degrees. There are times when you want your troops to fire at ANYTHING they see within a certain range (particularly if it's that small), and covered arc doesn't quite cut it. Particularly if you're assaulting a wooded area and don't really know what angle the next contact will appear at, or defending on the far flanks.

[Matt]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

Does it seem that, all things being equal, HQ's will unhide before squads when faced with an enemy unit at the same range?

Madmatt, I just wanted to say thanks for looking into this. I too have seen my HQ popping up before squads when faced with and enemy at approximately the same range. I have been playing with the covered arcs more and more because of it but don't always use them because Ruskies always seem to appear just outside the arc and my troops just stare instead of fire which is a totally seperate issue. I just prefer to not use the covered arcs sometimes.

-Matt

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by demoss:

The big drawback of covered arcs is that they don't go past 180 degrees. There are times when you want your troops to fire at ANYTHING they see within a certain range (particularly if it's that small), and covered arc doesn't quite cut it. Particularly if you're assaulting a wooded area and don't really know what angle the next contact will appear at, or defending on the far flanks.

Yup. It also can be difficult to get a platoon (or god forbid, a whole company) to properly set up an ambush with covered arcs. Because each unit's arc doesn't overlap exactly with the others, you often get situations where only a few of the ambushing units are triggered and the rest sit around watching them get slaughtered. This usually happens when the enemy enters the kill zone from a slightly different direction than you anticipated.

I like covered arcs a lot, but I'm thinking they should have been a compliment to the ambush command instead of a replacement.

[dalem]

I have also had to start using covered arcs to keep my HQs I'm using for on board mortar spotters from unloading at everything within range, when all I want them focused on is their little binoculars. More micromanaging, alas.

-dale

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by demoss:

The big drawback of covered arcs is that they don't go past 180 degrees. There are times when you want your troops to fire at ANYTHING they see within a certain range (particularly if it's that small), and covered arc doesn't quite cut it. Particularly if you're assaulting a wooded area and don't really know what angle the next contact will appear at, or defending on the far flanks.

That's why it is a good idea to keep the squads of a platoon in mutually supporting postions. The one on the right guards the right flank; the one in the middle guards the front; the one on the left guards the left flank. They can do this while moving as well.

Michael

[Battlefront.com]

Ken,

The reason I am asking about this is because I suspect the computer A/I "cheats" to even the odds.

The CM AI (Tac or Strat) never ever has, and never ever will, cheat. It goes against every principle that good AI should endorse. We would rather have the AI do some stupid things honestly than appear to be smart by doing things that no Human player ever could do. And since no AI can equal a Human, and CM's AI never ever cheats, then it will do stupid stuff. We could do nothing but code AI for a year, without changing one line of other game code, and this would still be the case. However, it would probably beat the snot out of most players most of the time

HQ issue is being looked into.

Steve

[Flesh]

Could this have something to do with the fact that HQ units can spot better than squads?

CMBB seems to give a spotting bonus to units equipped with binoculars, as HQ units are.

Also, if this is the case, the same problem (unhiding too early) should be seen with other units that are equipped with binoculars such as HMGs.