Something unusual...........maybe even a bug?

[Kingfish]

Hopefully an arty grog can confirm this, but here's my take on how it should work:

1)Spotter calls in fire mission on target

2)Spotting round lands 200 meters to the left

3)Spotter calls in adjustment

4)Another spotting round comes in

5)rinse, repeat until battery is on target

6)now call in for FFE.

The current system is steps 1,2 and then straight to 6. There doesn't seem to be any adjustments by the Tac AI for barrages landing off target.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Captitalistdoginchina:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by redwolf:

CDIC was lucky there was no gun in a foxhole behind his spotter, otherwise his spotter would now be in the foxhole and the gun out of it.

LOL, That's funny Redwolf

</font>

[-Havermeyer-]

I'm having comp problems so my disk is yet unused, though I am plowing through the manual.

Haven't gotten to the part about arty adjustment-- but I will pay VERY close attention when I get to it. Please clarify for me.

If the rounds (beyond the spotting round) come in way off target, me, the user with mouse, needs to move the line a little bit to get the rounds to fall on target?

What's the blinking point of that? I bought fricking the spotter and he's supposed to do that work for me in the game!!!

When my tanks miss I don't go back over to them and retarget a line that is on target so they get the idea I want them to hit the target I've already targeted them to hit? Or should I be doing that?

[ November 04, 2002, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: -Havermeyer- ]

[Bullethead]

Treeburst155 said:

Thanks, Bullethead, but I knew all that. What I want to know is how to adjust spotting rounds or FFE when I see it is way off target.

I have been shooting a lot of CMBB arty both in games and in tests since April and I have never had my FFE land off-target when my FO had an LOS to the target point. For that matter, I have never had blind fire at a TRP or a blind barrage scatter, either. The only times I have seen scatter is when all the following conditions are met: it isn't a barrage, there isn't a TRP, and the FO doesn't have an LOS.

When my "finished" copy of the game finally arrived, I saw on page 133 of the manual that it says FFE can land off-target even if the FO has an LOS, but I don't believe this is true. There is certainly no basis in the real world for this to happen, it goes against the discussions we had on this subject back in the beta, and I've never seen it happen in 7 months of playing the game.

So why are folks saying this is happening? Well, it could be there really is a very small chance of way off-target fire even with an LOS and so far I've just been lucky enough never to see it. But I suspect it's more likely that the FO really didn't have an LOS in the cases cited.

This is something you have to be really careful about. Many times in battles, you must try to get the FO's target line really close to the edge of a piece of cover, or snake it through a 1-pixel gap between 2 buildings, or whatever. Just moving the mouse a couple of pixels in the target area can make all the difference between having an LOS or not. It's always very easy to accidentally move the mouse a pixel or 2 as you click the button, that's just the nature of using a mouse. But in these tight situations, this movement can block your LOS without you realizing it. This is because the line changes from blue (has an LOS) to yellow (area fire) as you click, and you might not see it flash black (no LOS) in between. So you think you've got an LOS but really you don't, and so the fire scatters.

I target the arty on my desired point (in LOS). When it begins falling I see that it is falling far off target. NOW what do I do?

Never having had this situation arise, I can't tell you . I just never fire blind (unless I have a TRP or am doing a barrage) so I never have to deal with scatter at all. At least not yet .

[Bullethead]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

Hopefully an arty grog can confirm this, but here's my take on how it should work:

1)Spotter calls in fire mission on target

2)Spotting round lands 200 meters to the left

3)Spotter calls in adjustment

4)Another spotting round comes in

5)rinse, repeat until battery is on target

6)now call in for FFE.

The current system is steps 1,2 and then straight to 6. There doesn't seem to be any adjustments by the Tac AI for barrages landing off target.

The realworld method above is correct (although there are other ways of doing it). The game's system, however, is a bit different than you describe.

The fundamental problem with the game's arty system is that the FO unit can't really see the spotting rounds, so doesn't actually make any corrections. The spotting rounds are just decoration, effectively, and the FO is just a launch platform for bunch of shells that go where they are destined to go without any input from the FO unit.

When you target your FO on some point and hit the GO button, everything about how that arty shoot will work out is calculated by the game and becomes set in stone unless something happens to the FO at the wrong time. The game determines how long it will take for the FFE to arrive and where it will land. It does the same with spotting rounds, which arrive at set intervals as the timer is counting down.

[Agua]

BH,

It happens. It happened to me last night with a crack 75mm FO. Either the FO had LOS, or the LOS tool was giving false info, as were the LOS tools for a PzIII about 10m to the left of the FO. It's not a common occurrence, but it does happen. I had read in the manual that it can occur, so it didn't freak me out or anything. However, when I attempted to adjust the targeting, I moved it ever so slightly to the right of the original target. The LOS line was green, indicating that the call in would benefit from reduced delay because it was 1) within LOS, and 2) it was within 100m of the original targeting point.

Following adjustment of the targeting, the rounds landed waaaaaaaaaaaaaay off again, though in another direction (not the same direction as the adjustment I made to the original target).

I'm just wondering if it's a bug, or how the adjustment is made.

[walpurgis nacht]

This must be a bug. Very few people seem to understand it unless it has happened to them. It DOES happan, albeit rarely. My story in shorthand: 105mm, no LOS, very concentrated barrage about 500 meters off from the target area.

Tried to retarget with no success.

It has not happened to me again, but it does happen.

[MikeyD]

BFC seems to have been trying to neutralise some of the gameyer (gamier?) artillery fire aspects found in CMBO. For example, no more 'eye of God' pinpoint artillery fire from a spotter safely hidden in a church basement on the other side of the board.

I think a lot of your artillery 'troubles' stem from BFC's attempt to model the spotty reliability of artillery support on the Eastern Front in WWII. If you're finding artillery more difficult to use that may be exactly what they want to hear.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

BFC seems to have been trying to neutralise some of the gameyer (gamier?) artillery fire aspects found in CMBO. For example, no more 'eye of God' pinpoint artillery fire from a spotter safely hidden in a church basement on the other side of the board.

I think a lot of your artillery 'troubles' stem from BFC's attempt to model the spotty reliability of artillery support on the Eastern Front in WWII. If you're finding artillery more difficult to use that may be exactly what they want to hear.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

BFC seems to have been trying to neutralise some of the gameyer (gamier?) artillery fire aspects found in CMBO. For example, no more 'eye of God' pinpoint artillery fire from a spotter safely hidden in a church basement on the other side of the board.

I think a lot of your artillery 'troubles' stem from BFC's attempt to model the spotty reliability of artillery support on the Eastern Front in WWII. If you're finding artillery more difficult to use that may be exactly what they want to hear.

Yes, but come on, the vast majority of Russian and German casualties throughout the war were from arty---period. This "tweak" is not reasonable.

[Elmo]

Never mind.

[ November 04, 2002, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Elmo ]

[Agua]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Night:

Yes, but come on, the vast majority of Russian and German casualties throughout the war were from arty---period. This "tweak" is not reasonable.

If you're referring to the apparent inability to correct the odd off-target barrage, which is stated to be correctable in the manual, then I agree. Perhaps we're just not doing it right though. Maybe it requires an entirely new plotting - maybe it requires the player to attempt to estimate the deviation and compensate by "adjusting" in the opposite direction of the variance. Dunno.

[Agua]

Originally posted by Elmo:

If I understood what Bullethead wrote then he already provided the answer. You adjust in 100m increments from the actual impact point back toward your original intended target. Note the color of the line to determine if you're trying to adjust more than 100m at a time and whether you have LOS to the new target point (which determines any delay in the adjustment).

I believe he was referring to the ability to "adjust" targetting by moving the line to a different target within 100m and within LOS. If this is done, you suffer a minor delay time (as compared to the original targetting). That feature was present in CMBO, as well. That does not appear to make the correction for the "off target barrage" that we're discussing here. I believe Bh stated previously that he didn't believe that it happened, or that maybe he hadn't seen it.

[walpurgis nacht]

[/qb]

[Agua]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

I think a lot of your artillery 'troubles' stem from BFC's attempt to model the spotty reliability of artillery support on the Eastern Front in WWII. If you're finding artillery more difficult to use that may be exactly what they want to hear.

That would be fine, except the manual represents that the off target barrage can be corrected by adjusting the targeting. If they wanted non-correctable, off target barrages, then why should they indicate that they can be corrected through adjustment?

[edited to include the word "non-correctable" for the purpose of clarity]

[ November 04, 2002, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: Agua ]

[Treeburst155]

Bullethead is right about it being easy to THINK you have LOS, but you actually don't at the instant you click the mouse. Plotting a target point as deep into woods as you can see is one example.

Assuming there really is LOS to the target point, and the rounds are way off, perhaps it is necessary to CANCEL the fire mission and start from scratch.

Treeburst155 out.

[Agua]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

Bullethead is right about it being easy to THINK you have LOS, but you actually don't at the instant you click the mouse. Plotting a target point as deep into woods as you can see is one example.

True. No dispute about that, and anyone who has played the game for more than a week should be aware of this and be careful about plotting arty barrages at the limit of LOS. That is definitely NOT what happened with the experience I related above as the LOS tool indicated at least another 50m radius (probably much more) around the target was within LOS - it was in wide open, flat terrain.

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

Assuming there really is LOS to the target point, and the rounds are way off, perhaps it is necessary to CANCEL the fire mission and start from scratch.

Now there's an idea. We really need some comment on this. I think its a neat feature, but just want to know how it works.

[second edit made to include the following:] However, that's really not an adjustment, but plotting a new order. I wish I had the manual in front of me. I don't recall that it stated plotting a new barrage target was needed.

[ November 04, 2002, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Agua ]

[Kingfish]

If you think about it, there should be no difference between how CMBO and CMBB handles barrages in LOS .

Targets out of LOS should be way off target, and difficult to adjust, but those in LOS should be either very close or right on target.

[xerxes]

I have never had my CMBB arty land more than slightly off target. I always target in LOS and I tend to use the smaller caliber arty.

[Treeburst155]

Reading the manual, the general idea one gets over the course of four paragraphs is that you need to adjust fire a short distance from the original target point if the rounds are inaccurate. There is an emphasis on observing spotting rounds, but FFE can be adjusted too. It further states that you may have to make this small adjustment more than once.

In general, the whole adjust fire thing is just a bit too vague. It's not a precise explanation.

Taking it at face value, I would assume that I simply need to move the target point a very small amount if I observe what I think is an off target spotting round.

The gamey temptation would be to plot fire, and routinely adjust a very small amount as soon as the first spotting round falls, and each turn of the fire mission too.

Treeburst155 out.

[ November 04, 2002, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Agua]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

There is an emphasis on observing spotting rounds, but FFE can be adjusted too. It further states that you may have to make this small adjustment more than once.

What does it say regarding spotting rounds / adjustment of FFE, precisely? If it's too much to type out, I'll look at it when I get home in another three hours.

[Treeburst155]

Just for Agua, so he doesn't get bored at work.

Accuracy

Artillery fire is not always on target. Depending on the expeerience of the spotting team, the type of artillery being fired, and whether the target area is in sight of the spotter (which is the most important factor), artillery can miss its mark widely, sometimes resulting in nasty "friendly fire" incidents.

There are two exceptions to this - pre-planned bambardments are always on target (since it is assumed that the necessary calculations have been made ahead of time and the guns have been registered on target), as well as fire (even if out of LOS) on Target-Reference Points (TRPs), which have been likewise pre-registered in a fireplan.

The player receives no feedback if an artillery strike is accurate or not - it is important to watch the battlefield and see where the artillery actually falls. Look for that spotting round - if it's widely off target, chances are that the full barrage is going to be off the mark too.

Adjusting Fire

When you find your artillery strike to be off the mark, or if you simply want to adjust or "walk" the aiming point a short distance (even after the strike has begun), you will need to adjust your fire. Simply select the spotting team whose fire you want to adjust, and plot a new target point not too far away from the original mark. If the targeting line is light green you are within the acceptable adjustment radius of the original aiming point.

...a couple irrelevant paragraphs talking about blue and green lines, etc....then:

Adjusted fire can STILL be inaccurate, though it is a lot more probably that it will fall on target than the first strike. So you still need to watch the landing of the actual barrage so you can re-adjust again if needed.

Page 133-134

[Agua]

Thanks TB. It does give the general impression that adjustment inolves the slight "within-100m-green-line" type adjustment we were referring to. Okay, maybe I didn't adjust enough times. The barrage will exhaust the ammo, obviously, if I have to make several "adjustments", spaced one minute apart.

Well, good thing they're rare. This is the first time I've noticed it in, I guess, six weeks of daily play.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Bullethead:

When my "finished" copy of the game finally arrived, I saw on page 133 of the manual that it says FFE can land off-target even if the FO has an LOS, but I don't believe this is true.

Believe it.

I regularly have in LOS arty scatter, and even with small in-LOS adjustments on subsequent turns, can never seem to get it to land where I want.

I think I'll probably soon move to just using arty for smoke. The 'beaten zone' for smoke is so large anyway that the inaccuracy doesn't matter so much.

Regards

JonS

P.S. Re: the comment about most cas being caused by arty. While true, what you are overlooking is all the times between CMBB battles (which aren't simulated) during which artillery is still firing and causing casualties. Also, there are the strikes on targets behind the front lines (which also aren't simulated in CMBB battles).

[Treeburst155]

Why not just make minute adjustments throughout ALL fire missions from the first orders phase after the first spotting round to the end? You will cause brief delays each minute of course, but I'd pay that price for more accuracy.

Treeburst155 out.