Panzer Colors Revisited - Screenies for Modders

[Bruno Weiss]

I recently posted a thread on panzer colors and raised the question about tri-color versus bi-color camouflage on German vehicles serving on the Eastern Front. It isn't/wasn't an issue of correctness since tri-color was used on the East Front in mid to late war camo schemes.

Rather the viewpoint I raised was that the majority of the camo schemes from photographs appear to be primarily bi-color schemes, and about a 50%/50% split between what I'd term complex camo schemes, wave patterns and the like and hasty camo schemes of single line patterns, smears, and cross-hatches.

Relying on the Squadron Signal Panzer Colors series analysis and presentations, the bi-color schemes seem to make up the bulk of their color plates. Someone said that they thought the tri-color schemes were aesthetically pleasing to the eye and so it went that was the reason for their popularity with the modders. I rather think it has something to do with the outstanding work done by the modders on the CMBO projects, and the fact that their now particularly proficient with these tri-color schemes which might otherwise be more at home on the Western Front.

However, I wanted to demonstrate some equally aesthetically pleasing bi-color schemes. So, I figured I'd present a sampling of these for consideration by the mod experts for use in their future projects, and for the sake of general discussion. Bear in mind that I am not what you would term, mod literate. Just cropping pics, converting them, cleaning them up and posting them on the forum is a major achievement in my limited experience.

I would note there as another example, the most excellent and "aesthetically pleasing", bi-color hasty scheme, in the new CMMOS section at TMHQ as done by Saturnin on the Pz IIIJ.

Okay, the screenies.

From "SS Armor" A Pictorial History of the Armored Formations of the Waffen-SS, by Robert C. Stern, Squadron Signal Publications, 1978

Caption reads: Sdkfz 247 of SS-Pz-Gren-Div "LSSAH", April 1943, Central Russia.

Now tell me this isn't aesthetically pleasing... Why any true connoisseur of equipment camouflage is bound to grow misty eyed looking this beauty over. No, then how about this.

From "SS Armor" A Pictorial History of the Armored Formations of the Waffen-SS, by Robert C. Stern, Squadron Signal Publications, 1978

Caption reads: Sdkfz 138/1 "Bison" of SS-Pz-Gren_Div "Das Reich", July 1943, Kursk, Russia.

Now there's a hasty single line bi-color that would put the wood on any wargamer. Now, let's take a look at a tri-color, but distinctly different than the patterns seen later in the war and more common to the Western Front.

From "Panzer Colors", Camouflage of the German Panzer Forces 1939-45, by Bruce Culver and Bill Murphy, Squadron Signal Publications, 1976.

Caption reads: PzKpfw III ausf L, Russia 1943. Overall Dark Gray with Dark Green stripes and Dark Yellow overspray.

Tri-color alright, but very different than the brown/green of the Western Front variety. I've also noticed a strong showing with this particular paint color scheme, using gray, yellow, and dark green. And finally, for the big gun lovers.

From "SS Armor" A Pictorial History of the Armored Formations of the Waffen-SS, by Robert C. Stern, Squadron Signal Publications, 1978

Caption reads: Tiger I ausf E of SS-Pz-Gren-Div "Das Reich", July 1943, Kursk, Russia.

Like to see a discussion by the modders on what they think with regards to time line use of bi-color and tri-color schemes on the East Front. Most of all, like to see some mods come out using the patterns above. Easier said than done ofcourse, but ya kin no harm a feller fer wershin.

[ December 10, 2002, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[MrNoobie]

FINALLY! anyone has some whitewash pics i would use as well *right click save* thnx B

[Bruno Weiss]

Hehe, well figured ta tease ya's with a periodic posting of samples for educational and discussional purposes acourse. Yes, plenty O whitewashes too!

Actually Noob, I kin wrap ya up a present fer the Holidays if'n ya like. The .jpg's are small enough that they'd fit pretty good zipped in an email.

[ December 10, 2002, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[MrNoobie]

by all means send em to me. i have a folder for reference, send em all to me if you want. Missing links and Track link are great sites that i use for reference, but i would like different pics to look at as well. the more ref the better

[Hoopenfaust2]

Could I get those to. I'm done with Dunkelgrau mods for now, although PanzerMartin is doing a great job on a new style of Dunkelgrau.

Some of those yellow panzers are begging for some camo.

Cheers

[Pine59]

Nice pics Bruno. I'm not a modder but just a comment on two of the pics. The Sdkfz 247 and the PzKpfw III represent original panzer gray vehicles that had dark yellow applied in the field. This was fairly common on the East Front where there was continous fighting but was very rare if not non existent in the CMBO theater.

I've noticed some of the original CMBB german armor that appears in both gray and yellow versions like the short barrel MkIVs and mid production MkIIIs has the appearance of being over painted in the dunkelgelb versions. Maybe KwazyDog or someone could tell us if that was intentional.

[Pine59]

BTW, speaking of color schemes these are really cool:

Tiger 1 :cool:

[Bruno Weiss]

Okay Noob and Hoop. I'll fix ya's up a packet. Might take me a few days, then I'll get it off to you. Oh, and yes. I won't duplicate these since you have them. Oh, will do on different pics. I'll get ya a good all round sampling.

Agreed Highlife. You can see on the Pzkw III L, the base was gray, then they painted the green striping followed by the overspray of dk yellow.

[ December 10, 2002, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Sidewinder]

could you maybe send em my way also? not a modder, but nice to have references n stuffs!

sidewinder@shaw.ca if ya please

thanks

[Gordon]

Bruno,

I'm always looking for more reference material.

Gordon

[Bruno Weiss]

Okay, got ya. The stupid server is down right now. They get scared over an ice storm prediction, so they switched over to an emergency generator and knock everything down anyway in the process. I love management. (And the technicians are saying; it was fine till big shot over there made a decision).

[Michael Emrys]

Very nice post, Bruno. I think this kind of thing is a real service, and I hope the practice takes hold. I know that people have been posting pics for a long time, but this is somehow different, more organized and to the point. Or maybe the Christmas spirit is making me soppy, I don't know...

BTW, can anybody tell me a little about the Sdkfz 247? What was it used for? Was it a command vehicle or a recce vehicle or what? I don't think I've ever seen one before.

Michael

[Bastables]

http://www.missing-lynx.com/panzer_facts.htm

This might be of interest in that Jentz and Doyle contend that none of the current painting/drawing published have the proper colour/tone.

[Zitadelle]

Bastables makes a very good point. Jentz has been arguing for years at AMPS that the current preceived shades of Dunkelgelb have all been incorrect, and he still continues his hunt for exact paint samples.

The problem is worsened by photography as well. First, computer monitors actually have contributed to the problem of translating colors. Everyone has a slightly different setting on the color for their monitors which can make the shade too 'red' or too 'green'.

Moreover, photography of the period has really been a factor. Most photographic records were with B/W film which did not truly capture the color scheme of the camoflauge. Tony Greenland discusses the issue in depth, and recommends that you take photos of models painted with the rust and green stripes using B/W film. Especially for the lighter shades, it can be difficult to differentiate between the two colors.

A further example of this is actually the PzKW VIE source used above. In 1978, the Squadron Signals identified the color scheme on the Kursk Das Reich tigers as green (Olivgrun RAL X806) on yellow (Dunkelgelb RAL X805). Now, it is known that the paint scheme was rust/brown (Braune RAL 8017) ontop of the yellow.

[Bruno Weiss]

WHAT'S THIS, wrong tints, misinterpreted black and white photo's, controversy over colors!

Without a doubt. As Zitadelle points out, it is difficult at best and often problematic attempting to differentiate primary colors from a black and white photograph, but to then attempt to reproduce the exact tint is IMO, nearly impossible. Add to that, the settings of the scanner equipment used to scan the color plates, the monitor your viewing, and the graphic card, the degree of variations in the actual period paint quality, different shipments produced at different times, and the application of the paint itself on the subject of the photo from which the color plate was interpreted and things become problematic. I.e., a heavy or light coat, new or weathered, as seen in a black and white photograph or a washed out color photo either of which may not have been taken under favorable lighting conditions. Makes for lots of uncertainty when gauging to what degree a particular color contrasts against another color. I would be careful however, to declare that none of the current paintings and drawings have the proper tint/tone. Not that they might not be correct in their analysis, but to declare that nothing about all of the current publications color tones is correct is a pretty broad declaration.

In the end, a certain interpretative license has to be applied by the artist/modder. Been there done that, with Civil War reproduction equipments, and with European Air War aircraft mod colors. After all is said and done, the artist/modder does his/her best to adapt their model to the most generally accepted patterns and primary colors as demonstrated in reputable publications.

In the case of rust brown versus dark green on the Kursk Tigers that Zitadelle points out, I cannot speak to that with authority. These color plates are from an early and generally accepted reputable publication. But admittedly in some cases published before a few of the modders in here were even born, and much research into WWII camo and colors has been conducted since then. It would be helpful if you could post what you have on the issue since you've raised it Zitadelle. This thread is hopefully, meant to assist the modders in determining what is most appropriate for their projects of equipment camo schemes on the Ostfront. As such, information such as that which you've referred to is most beneficial to the discussion.

Okay, rust brown over dk yellow. Let's take a look at a Panther all dressed up in that very scheme, caption included.

Correction on credit from original post. From "Panzer Colors", Camouflage of the German Panzer Forces 1939-45, by Bruce Culver and Bill Murphy, Squadron Signal Publications, 1976.

Proceeding on into winter camo, this halftrack vehicle has what appears to be a patchy whitewash applied in haste over dk yellow. Note the application to the extra gas can on the front and upper side.

From "Panzer Colors", Camouflage of the German Panzer Forces 1939-45, by Bruce Culver and Bill Murphy, Squadron Signal Publications, 1976.

Finally, Noob wanted to see whitewash. Here is a nice little number from Central Russia all dressed up in a weathered winter coat. Note the appearance of rust in various key places.

From "SS Armor" A Pictorial History of the Armored Formations of the Waffen-SS, by Robert C. Stern, Squadron Signal Publications, 1978

In finality, the artist must contemplate which schemes were more predominate during a given period and perhaps even to a particular geographical local. By using primary colors, tints, and schemes, that are the most generally accepted coming close to actual reality is about the best one can do. I would think, it is impossible to actually recreate an exact color tone/tint where the only evidence that exists is either black and white photo which as we discussed are most difficult to interpret, or the more rare color photos of the period that undoubtedly would be called into question by some as to the quality of the color film and its degredation over the years since it was originally shot. IMO, a reasonable proximity to exactness using interpretative license is about the best one can hope for.

[ December 11, 2002, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[panzermartin]

Great pics Bruno!Thank you very much for your help.

They have already given me some new modding ideas.

[Nidan1]

Are the "Squadron/Signal" Panzer colors series still, available. I was a military modeler in a past life, and I have everyone of them that was released, including the vehicles/tanks from all sides. I also have every issue of "Military Modeler" which include some great color photos of scale model armor and other vehicles. Unfortunately I do not have the means to post all this info on the web for you guys to use. Bruno is doing a great service here, but I do not know how extensive his publication collection is. If someone is interested in obtaining these publications from me, please give me a shout. I would be willing to give them away, since they are now only nostalgic reminders of a hobby I no longer participate in.

Additional info added after reading posts that were done while I was doing mine.

I did extensive research into color schemes during my modeling days, and as Bruno says above trying to determine shades of color from a B/W photo is nearly inpossible. I visited the Bovington Tank Museum some years back, and the curator there showed me some actual samples of paint from German WWII vehicles. There were about four different Dunkel Gelb shades from my recollection. Depending on the front, the supply situation, the way the paints were mixed, etc. Many variations of color schemes existed on German vehicles. You have to remember that a lot of this painting was done in the field, and and different units had different ways and means of painting their vehicles. I would imagine that very few had factory paint jobs. In any event if any of you modders want to pick my brain, please feel free.

[ December 11, 2002, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Nidan1 ]

[MikeyD]

The old "Panzer Colors" book (probably older than many of the forum members here!) may have had a lot of problems with it but it does show a lot of mono-color and bi-color vehicles. What exactly those colors were is open to some debate. I do think the game should have more yellow-over-grey base mid-war vehicles, especially mid-war light guns (50mm, 37mm), early-mid Stugs and PzIIIs. One vehicle that they did do that way was the PzII.

This would actually be very easy for modders to do. you take the grey vehicle bmp, paste the yellow vehicle bmp over it, then use the 'eraser' tool to make your grey/yellow pattern!

[ December 11, 2002, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Splinty]

I'm currently building the Dragon kit of the Panther A, and the color plate you posted just became the basis of my paint scheme for it Bruno. Do you by any chance have any other views of it?

If so would be so kind as to send them to the addy in my profile? I'll post a shot or two of the model as soon as it's done if any of you modders would like to take a look at it.

Nidan I would be very interested in working out some sort of arrangment for those magizines.

Drop me a line at my profile address if you'd like to discuss it further.

Thanks for all the research guys!

[ December 11, 2002, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Splinty ]

[Saturnin]

Hi, I have made this Pz III L too

and the Pz III j short late with the same camo of the bison ( top of the post,i 'll finish in few time)

i love bicolors so i ready for exemples

[K_Tiger]

Excelent colors!! I will see them on my CM Vehicels soooon...please hurry up! especialy Hoopy... )

[Bruno Weiss]

Yes Saturnin! Yes yes, I even plugged this model for ya above in the thread. (schmooze schmooze).

As you can tell, I'm a fan of bi-color hasty camo. Excellent. Can't wait to see more of these.

[Hoopenfaust2]

Saturnin

They look great.

One of the pics has a jerry can and a helmet on the side of the vehicle. Those details are hard to come by, but I'd really like to add those in at sometime to the mods.

The white wash picture is something I've been looking for. I've got other pics of whitewash AFVs and like this one, it seems the turret has most of the white paint and not the rest of the tank (makes sense)

What do people want?

- White Wash Dunkelgrau a la PanzerMartin

- bi-curious (oops) bi-camo dunkelgelb

I'd really like a partner (one) so we can get things looking the same.

[ December 11, 2002, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Hoopenfaust 101 ]

[Canon]

Bruno

Could you send me a bundle of pics. I'd really appreciate it. Thanks

Joe

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Hoopenfaust 101:

One of the pics has a jerry can and a helmet on the side of the vehicle. Those details are hard to come by, but I'd really like to add those in at sometime to the mods.

Can you get things like that really right though without the abilitiy to add polygons? I'm sceptical.

Michael