Panzer Colors Revisited - Screenies for Modders

[Hoopenfaust2]

Go check out Gordon Molek's mods of the Sherman for CMBO. Or his halftracks. They look pretty good to me.

Did you get your OE problem solved?

[Gordon]

Originally posted by Hoopenfaust 101:

Go check out Gordon Molek's mods of the Sherman for CMBO. Or his halftracks. They look pretty good to me.

Did you get your OE problem solved?

Hoopenfaust 101,

I believe the "kit" you are referring to are Marco Bergman's originals, I just added the camouflage.

Gordon

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

[qb]WHAT'S THIS, wrong tints, misinterpreted black and white photo's, controversy over colors!

Without a doubt. As Zitadelle points out, it is difficult at best and often problematic attempting to differentiate primary colors from a black and white photograph, but to then attempt to reproduce the exact tint is IMO, nearly impossible. Add to that, the settings of the scanner equipment used to scan the color plates, the monitor your viewing, and the graphic card, the degree of variations in the actual period paint quality, different shipments produced at different times, and the application of the paint itself on the subject of the photo from which the color plate was interpreted and things become problematic. I.e., a heavy or light coat, new or weathered, as seen in a black and white photograph or a washed out color photo either of which may not have been taken under favorable lighting conditions. Makes for lots of uncertainty when gauging to what degree a particular color contrasts against another color. I would be careful however, to declare that none of the current paintings and drawings have the proper tint/tone. Not that they might not be correct in their analysis, but to declare that nothing about all of the current publications color tones is correct is a pretty broad declaration.

In the end, a certain interpretative license has to be applied by the artist/modder. Been there done that, with Civil War reproduction equipments, and with European Air War aircraft mod colors. After all is said and done, the artist/modder does his/her best to adapt their model to the most generally accepted patterns and primary colors as demonstrated in reputable publications.

In the case of rust brown versus dark green on the Kursk Tigers that Zitadelle points out, I cannot speak to that with authority. These color plates are from an early and generally accepted reputable publication. But admittedly in some cases published before a few of the modders in here were even born, and much research into WWII camo and colors has been conducted since then. It would be helpful if you could post what you have on the issue since you've raised it Zitadelle. This thread is hopefully, meant to assist the modders in determining what is most appropriate for their projects of equipment camo schemes on the Ostfront. As such, information such as that which you've referred to is most beneficial to the discussion.

Okay, rust brown over dk yellow. Let's take a look at a Panther all dressed up in that very scheme, caption included.

I think you've also missed the point that from August 1944 AFV left the "factories" with a heer mandated and factory applied camo schemes. From '44 Aug to '44 sep the Ambush scheme was applied. From 44 sep till '45 June the Red primer was "half of the surface covered with patches of Rotbraun, Olivgrun, or Dunklegelbhalf," similar to the Late Panther G paint camo of CMBO (CD original). From '45 June the Panzers were to receive a base coat of Dunkelgruen (RAL 6003). A camouflage pattern was to be created at the assembly plant by spraying on Rotbraun or Dunklegelb in sharp contours.

Of course there will be older veh that survived with their Unit applied camo paint applied, such as the highly individualised Panther D/A's of 5 SS Wiking serving until '45. But the new/rebuilt vehs invariably received factory standard camo schemes.

[ December 11, 2002, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Bastables ]

[Hoopenfaust2]

Originally posted by Gordon:

Hoopenfaust 101,

I believe the "kit" you are referring to are Marco Bergman's originals, I just added the camouflage.

[PEIPER#1]

Yes Saturnin! all East front Panzers need to look like that pzIIIJ, very nice and please do the kursk tiger camo next :eek:

[ December 11, 2002, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: PEIPER#1 ]

[Gordon]

Originally posted by Hoopenfaust 101:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gordon:

Hoopenfaust 101,

I believe the "kit" you are referring to are Marco Bergman's originals, I just added the camouflage.

</font>

[MikeyD]

I recall some time ago seeing a "Panzer Colors Errata" article, correcting errors in Panzer Colors I and II. It went on for something like 5 pages! This is not meant as a criticism, I'd HOPE we've learned something new about armor in the 24 years between '78 and '02! In '78 they didn't have the impressive accumulated scholarship of Jentz and Zaloga to fall back on.

[ December 11, 2002, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Bruno Weiss]

Bastables wrote:

I think you've also missed the point that from August 1944 AFV left the "factories" with a heer mandated and factory applied camo schemes. From '44 Aug to '44 sep the Ambush scheme was applied. From 44 sep till '45 June the Red primer was "half of the surface covered with patches of Rotbraun, Olivgrun, or Dunklegelbhalf," similar to the Late Panther G paint camo of CMBO (CD original).

Well I really wasn't hunting for that point. First, I stated early on that tri-color schemes were used from mid to late war. Second, the point made was that Panzer Colors series demonstrates a predominance of bi-color over tri-color camo schemes, split about evenly between hasty and complex patterns.

However, let's discuss for a moment what the written word says versus reality. You didn't say what your using as a reference regarding Heer mandated tri-color camo patterns for vehicles leaving the factory, (I assume your referring to yellow, brown, and green), complex patterns. However, I would submit as I've always maintained that with the increasing bombing campaign against German industry and shortages in raw materials, such efforts as mandated tri-colored complex camo schemes being applied to each and every vehicle rolling out the bay, probably amounts more to the desire in the mind of the German military or governmental author of the mandate, and not the reality of practice. (Like to see the citation reference on that by the way). Was this mandate you speak of for all vehicles everywhere all the time, or just for some bound for units in certain geographical locations?

There is plenty of documentation around however citing the shortages in the German munitions industry in later years, and if every vehicle coming out the door was in a tri-color camo scheme, then someone did some serious scrubbing on the numerous late war mono-color vehicles prior to their being photographed.

Which, is a statement towards the point. What is written about what was supposed to happen with regards to factory paint, supplies shipped with the vehicle, and what crews did or didn't do with it, is one thing. But photographs are another. Photographs may be open to interpretation with regards to tint, primary color on occasion, maybe even the date of the photo at times, but all in all the photographical evidence as seen in books and documentaries shows a very wide variety of colors, patterns, and schemes, including a healthy share of mono-painted vehicles right up to the end of the war.

Right MickyD, but what they did have is photographs. No critism taken, I didn't write the books. On the other hand, I'm fairly skeptical of any author claiming they've found something everyone else missed for sixty years. Technology is wonderful now compared to 30 years ago, but as yet there ain't no time transporter to wisk those authors back to the Ostfront so they can confirm their claims. Chip samples of paint from an original vehicle for example, can and certainly do fade after 60 years. And, such samples represent only those samples out of thousands and thousands of vehicles over nearly a decade of paint production. Much less changes in application methods that would result in various paint tints. And while authors can debate black and white photo interpretations till the cows come home, the patterns themselves regardless of the color tints, most often comes through without much of a need to interpret.

I don't have any problem with anyone who doesn't like Panzer Colors, nor the fact that Panzer Colors may have issued corrections. Saying once again what I said before, there is an interpretative license involved otherwise one could never do a mod since anything seen anywhere, or any thing read anywhere might not be correct. In point of fact, IMO, for the artist that can envision beyond the photograph I believe the Panzer Color series provide a wealth of information for the potential modder.

[ December 11, 2002, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Pine59]

This won't add much to this discussion but I thought some might be interested in seeing these photos. They were taken at Aberdeen Proving Ground sometime after the war but before the Korean War began. These are reported to be original untouched paint schemes. The vehicles that weren't cut up for scrap during the Korean War have been repainted several times.

The color isn't much better than B&W. Notice how the jagdpanzer IV "crisscross" scheme resembles the original CMBO King Tiger.

There are several more including a Sturm Tiger if anyone is interested.

We can assume these were all from the Western Front

[illo]

SPA 508 Tiger I, early 1943.(bad quality pic yes)

?

Photo of Das Reich Tiger. (Same camo as in first post)

Some model of same.

(Its possible that "octopus camo" should be rust brown, atleast it was in some cases)

For more detailed pics of same go to

http://members.rogers.com/ssocr4/tiger.htm

or

http://www.ww2modelmaker.com/articlepub/RTarticle/tigera3.htm

Panzer colors. (I thought it could be of some use.)

[ December 11, 2002, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: illo ]

[Warmaker]

Saturnin,

Nice to see you making the move to CMBB. I liked your mods in CMBO.

[Bruno Weiss]

Okay, now here's a good example of black and white photo interpretation. The Tiger picture above, is the photo used by Panzer Colors for the color plate on the Kursk Tiger. I wouldn't say with 100% certainty, I'm not a photographic expert however IMO, the octopus (someone called it), camo stripes on this Tiger appear too dark to me to be interpreted as rust brown. It would cedrtainly be a heavy and dark coat of rust brown. The dark contrast looks more like dark green on yellow to me.

[The Oak]

I like the picture of the Sdkfz 138/1 "Bison." I was hoping to see it in the patch to replace the un-historical shared Wespe BMPs currently in use. Even a Marder III with a shorter barrel would suffice as a late Bison.

[Michael Emrys]

Another problem confronting anyone trying to use a black and white photo to figure out colors is that, unless the photographer was using achromatic film (which cannot be regarded as anything like a certainty in that era), colors toward the blue end of the spectrum will print lighter than as seen by the eye and colors toward the red end of the spectrum will print darker. This means the rust red will also look darker than the green, even if to the eye they were approximately the same.

Then there is the question of whether the photographer was using a filter, which opens a whole new can of worms.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Hoopenfaust 101:

Did you get your OE problem solved?

Yeah. Mark Gibson's tip did the trick. Cost me my saved mail though.

Michael

[Bastables]

Jentz, within his Panther book and assorted Osprey and Vanguard books eg PIV/Tiger/Panther books.

The link above was also written by Jentz and Doyle based on their research, which in respect to Jentz and German Armour development, is exhaustive.

[Bruno Weiss]

Oak has an awfully good point there. Wouldn't it be nice to see the Bison replace the Wespe? Huh huh Matt, whatdya say, whatdya say.

[Bruno Weiss]

Bastables wrote:

The link above was also written by Jentz and Doyle based on their research, which in respect to Jentz and German Armour development, is exhaustive.

Okay, let's talk about this then. Makes a good subject for discussion. It isn't criticism, but a search for facts.

I'm curious. If Jentz and Doyle are correct, what explains the abundance of late war mono-colored vehicles and assorted camo pattern vehicles in the photographic record, and "not" in the ambush pattern which if they were correct, would logically be predominate in the vehicle photos but in reality is somewhat rare?

Further, the model website link above where they speak to this, does not provide specific references, it just makes a flat out statement of declaration that so and so happened, without providing any specific information to back up the claim. I'm not saying they don't provide it somewhere maybe in a book. (As I asked earlier, I'd like to see the quote for their citations). However if the website owner wants people to accept what Jentz and Doyle are claiming in their rewrite of generally accepted history, I would think they would provide a citation or two to back up what they assert.

What orders? As issued by who, and at what level? And what technical specifications as originated by who, and based on what? More importantly, did such orders actually get implemented, or might they be just one more set of orders issued in a dying Reich that never were implemented. Do Jentz and Doyle provide any secondary evidence to back up this claim? Production figures associated with for example, how many vehicles were given this standard ambush camo paint application and the dates of implementation?

I realize it is a website link and therefore not all inclusive, and maybe they provide such information in their books or something. Then whoever did the website should have transcribed it over to the site, but their discussion on that link leaves open the question as to how these orders they speak of ran headlong into the reality of a munitions industry that was being layed to waste by Allied bombing raids, raw material shortages of all kinds, manpower shortages, transportation infrastructure disasters that would interrupt and cut off all manner of logistical supplies, including fancy paint job supplies at the factories, and on and on.

To make claims based on some sort of orders in an archive is fine and all, but it has to be backed up by a discussion on how that claim was logically possible and how it then fits into the known pictorial record.

The reality of the situation is that in late war Germany few things were standardized. The photographic records demonstrate a wide variety of both paint applications, and camo applications. It would be hard to conceive that while the Germans struggled to get a train from point A to point B on any given hour without it being blasted off the tracks, that they had the abundance of supplies, manpower, and manhours, to subscribe to somebody's order of standard paint patterns on vehicles.

Which, takes us back to what I said up front. If such claims be valid, where then did all of the mono-colored vehicles come from, and why would they have painted so many vehicles in different camo patterns than the ambush pattern these two seem to think was put on every vehicle? It doesn't add up.

Seems to me there are a couple of major gaps in Jentz and Doyle's claims that remains in want of additional explaination before their assertion could be widely accepted.

[ December 12, 2002, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Bastables]

The thing about the accurate representation of SQN/SIG books for late war colour camo schemes is that they are not. The wealth of monocolour schemes of course correctly appears in AFV that were manufactured before factory applied complex camouflage schemes were applied due to orders received.

The SQN/SIG books do not show any late manufactured (post Sep 44) Panzers i.e. PIV ausf J with twin vertical exhausts nor Panther G lates with the Chin and added compartment heater with mono coloured schemes. PG 90 and 91 of show obviously post Sep 44 AFV with factory applied paint schemes.

The SQN/SIG Panther book contains one photo of a late Panther, which of course has a factory applied tri colour schemes pg38. The PIV SQN/SIG book does not even have late production ausf J represented or the statement that vertical exhausts were used.

Jentz Panther book on the other hand has photos of all its post Sept Panther Gs with factory applied colour schemes; pgs 94(Chinless late Gs with steel road wheels post sept '44), Pg 98/99 (late Panther chin Gs dec '44) and pg 142 Herman Goring Panther late G with ambush scheme.

Panzertruppen vol II by Jentz also has the few late Panthers depicted by photographs with the factory applied tri colour schemes.

List of sources used by Jentz= http://www.missing-lynx.com/panzer_facts/pfaccuracy.htm

Also "A comprehensive report on modifications to teh Panther Ausf.G published in November 1944 and a record of correspondence between MNH and Waffenamt on Panther modifications is the main sources of information." Jentz goes on to state that "The modifcations are listed in chronological order in which the changes are first reported to have been preasent on completed Panthers leaving the assembly plant."(Jentz 1995 Panther). These modifcations include Waffenamt orders for factory applied camo and date of actul compliance. The former are already in the previous web link and do not differ from the dates for Panther factory applied camo.

Again I should stress that the coverage of late war vehs in the SQN/SIG Panzer colours series in action series is woefully inadequate.

[ December 12, 2002, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: Bastables ]

[Magnus]

FYI, Saturnin's Mod is available for download, see this thread .