Anyone else intimidated by Russian armor?

[legend42]

Growing up and advancing from wargame to wargame,(I started with Panzerblitz which some of you guys are probably too young to remeber)I was always under the impression from movies and documentaries that german armor was invinsible.In other words, German armor always got the press.You never really heard alot about Russain armor.Well after looking through some of these Russian armor sites they got some real scary beasts to deal with, especially from 44 on.Anyone else just a little aprehensive about taking the axis side?

[gunnergoz]

IIINNNNCCOOOOOMMMINNNGGGGG.....

I expect some reaction to this topic.

For my part, I was fortunate enough to have access to official US Army cold-war era manuals describing Soviet/Bloc equipment in detail. I got an early appreciation for the T-34/85, the JSIII, the SU-122/152/100, etc. Not to mention some superb artillery and support weapons.

In the hands of experienced, well-led troops, the Russian equipment can lead to victory. Like anything else, it has weaknesses that can be exploited by the enemy.

"Invincible?" No. The only invincibility is in one's attitude towards self or others. But some of the Russian designs had a great deal of merit and value on the battlefield.

[Prinz Eugen]

Bring them on !

I have my toothpicks sharpened and at the ready ! :mad:

[Nippy]

"Anyone else just a little aprehensive about taking the axis side?"

Heck, now it will be a joy again to play Allied! Finlly some tanks that are just about equal with their German counterparts*. Then again I look forward to the German challanges in the early war years too. 37mm armed PZIII vs. KV-1!

*If you are Russian and was to kill lots of German tanks you can use the T-34/85, SU-100, JSU-122, JSU-152, and BS-3 AT gun. If you are American and want to kill lots of german tanks, you can use the T-26 Pershing, and...and...um...uh...did I mention the Pershing?

[Lee_DiSantis]

I don't know if any of you guys had the game 'Panzer Commander' (it wasn't really that great), but I remember having some pretty cool battles in the '45 campaigns where you'd have a King Tiger platoon going up against a couple IS-III platoons...it was quite fun!

In my opinion the King Tiger was a superior design, but of course the lack of a powerful enough engine hampered it.

[ September 15, 2002, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Lee_DiSantis ]

[leakyD]

wasn't it guerdian that said the appearance of the t-34 was "very worrying."?

after playing yelnia a few times as the germans, i can feel his pain!

'41 will be quite challenging. so will '42, '43, and heck, even '44 and '45 (depending on what units you're playing with).

all around it's going to be *quite* interesting seeing how we do, compared to historical outcomes.

[gunnergoz]

Legend42-

As for trepidation about gaming against the Russian armor, read up as much as you can beforehand and see how these vehicles were used against the enemy. Then, once you have the game, play Russians often to see first hand what their good and bad points are. You'll soon have a better-informed view that will offset your old intimidation.

[ September 15, 2002, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: gunnergoz ]

[WWB]

The big russian late-war beasts might sound intimidating, but remember by that time the Germans had a fair number of long 88 or long 75mm toting TDs and tanks floating about. What is alot scarier is a Tiger in early 43. You want to talk about having no fear?

WWB

[Commissar]

NO worries whatsoever. They'll be on my side after all. After playing the Germans 99% of the time on CMBO, playing the Russians should prove to be an interesting and different experience. I never liked playing the western allies. I just found them and their equipment generally dull.

Late 1943 onwards ought to prove more and more vexing for the German side as long as you have someone who knows how to use Russian forces properly.

The German glamour cats (Tiger, Panther, and the numerous varients) are definitely good performers in pure combat terms especially with well trained crews. In the end though, not enough of them could be produced and fielded to really make a difference in the outcome of the war, despite numerous accounts of Tigers and Panthers beating off Russian armor that outnumbered them by a quite a lot.

[ September 15, 2002, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Commissar ]

[Pzman]

I am not to worried... war time losses were three to one in the Germans favor and for a good reason. The Russians made lots of big tanks with good guns, but a green crew in 45 is still a green crew.

[Guest Mike]

I see lots of arguments about the time frame for head-to-head games - the Russians all wanna play 1941-early 42, the Germans all wanna play 43!!

[Bruce70]

Personally I like using light tanks, the big monsters don't hold that much interest for me. Of course the open expanses of the steppes might change my mind.

[Jam]

I'm looking forward to the early years myself. Just imagine that Citadel map with hordes of

BT-7s zipping across the steppe. Your German troops hiding in their foxholes with a couple of PzKpfw 38(t)s as backup.

I find this just as unnerving for the Germans as facing down an ISU-152 in the streets of Berlin.

Now excuse me while I clean the drool from my keyboard. :cool:

Jam

[Andrew H.]

Remember that with EFOW on, you might not even know what kind of tank you're facing. Is it a T-34...or a T-26? Or even a KV-1...

I don't think that KV-2s will be mistaken for anything, else though. Well, maybe a pillbox.

Of course, the frustrating thing for the the Russian player will be the reality of trying to effectively employ these machines, rather than watch them rout off the board after receiving a bunch of non-penetrating hits. :mad:

[Commissar]

Originally posted by Mike:

I see lots of arguments about the time frame for head-to-head games - the Russians all wanna play 1941-early 42, the Germans all wanna play 43!!

Are you kidding? Of course, you are. I want to play the Russians in 1944 onwards because that's when you get the all the neat toys on both sides and when the Russians get to show the German High Command what they learned from them. By this time, the Soviet operations greatly matured and the painful, bloody lessons of the previous three years were put to good use. Training greatly improved, Soviet commanders were much better able to conduct the kind of operations envisioned by early Russian armor theorists, and Russia and Germany achieved more or less parity in terms of battlefield technology/effectiveness. That near parity would spell the death knell for what was left of the Wehrmacht.

If anything, the glory days for the Germans would be early on. By 1943, the dream was just about over for them. By 1944 and Bagration, Germany's nightmares begin to come true as the Red Army drives closer and closer to Germany.

Quite frankly, the true test to see if a player has properly mastered German tactics and equipment will be in the 1943-45 timeframe. Technical parity, numerical superiority (although very much reduced from the early days of the war and not anywhere as great as some may believe in general), and a tactically, operationally more mature Soviet enemy would test the best skills of any player, assuming the Soviet player has mastered his own side, of course. Any player who assumes it's going to be cakewalk against a competent Russian foe is asking for a spanking (the opposite is also true). The multiplayer games ought to be fantastic with these kinds of players on both sides.

[ September 15, 2002, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Commissar ]

[Chad Harrison]

I dont know, after the demo, I aint too afraid of the T34/76. Now the T34/85, thats another story. Also, seeing a couple platoons of ISU's coming at me would be enough for me to wait for my email to crash so I can hide from the fear!!!!

Or better yet, if you get a early war battle, and a russian KV-2 shows up, then you will say:

BFC, my KV-2 did not stop an entire division for a day! Fix or do somefink!

Chad

[WWB]

As for soviet players wanting to play 41 battles because of gun/armor superiority forgets certain major drawbacks to soviet docrine. Particularly 2 man turrets and the lack of radios in every tank. We can ignore deficient ammunition and armor for the moment. Realize that as soon as the shooting starts, the player essentially loses control of the platoon, even simple orders have 45+ second delays for the wingmen.

I would take 5 regular or better 38ts against 20 T26s or BTs any day. I would even consider taking 5 panzer IIs against the same group. The main issue is running out of ammo.

WWB

[Guest Mike]

Remember the T34's in hte Demo are M40's, with particularly weak armour on hte gun mantlet - most T34's wont have that problem - only 400 m40's were made!!

2-man turrets or not, T34/76 m41's are going to be a lot nastier in 1941 than you have sen so far.

And as for superior Russian numbers, doctrine etc - remember that in thisgame you'll be playing equal points (or a variation thereof where defenders get advantages supposedly to balance fewer points on table), the staregy is all done, and ultimately the best the Russians managed was to get to be as good as the Germans!!

A lot of the advantages that the Russians had simply won't appear in a tactical level game.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Panzerman:

I am not to worried... war time losses were three to one in the Germans favor and for a good reason. The Russians made lots of big tanks with good guns, but a green crew in 45 is still a green crew.

The Germans made lots of big tanks with good guns too, but as you say, a green crew in 45 is still a green crew. See the magnificent performance of the independent Panther Brigades in Lorraine...

[Zitadelle]

Originally posted by Panzerman:

I am not to worried... war time losses were three to one in the Germans favor and for a good reason. The Russians made lots of big tanks with good guns, but a green crew in 45 is still a green crew.

A green crew is still a green crew- correct. And, from Summer 1944 (Bagration) through the end of the war (Berlin), the Germans definitely had quite a few panzer units manned by green crews. Gone were the veteran units that had charged across the steppes in 1941-42 and tried to hold the line in 1943-1944. Or, the units were so understrength and ill-equipped they would translate into green crews in the CM methodology.

[Commissar]

Originally posted by Mike:

A lot of the advantages that the Russians had simply won't appear in a tactical level game.

I wouldn't say that at all. Cost and rarity will definitely reflect what the Russian player can purchase, will purchase, and how much they can purchase. This will also affect tactics in a large way. If CMBB is historicaly accurate, and you know it will be, the Soviet player is going to have to use Soviet advantages to the fullest while seeking to reduce the effect of Soviet weaknesses in terms of equipment, training/morale, and major differences in command and control. Granted the player is free to use whatever tactic or ploy he wants, but a good understanding and use of Soviet doctrine should prove useful in understanding these strengths and weaknesses and how the Soviets worked them to their advantage.

[ September 16, 2002, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Commissar ]

[scorpius1001]

Range Range Range........Keep those L/75 equipped boys back if possible and take advantage of the range those guns provide. I believe the maps will now be somewhat bigger where this tactic can be better employed......As for early on...well...I gonna have to see how fast anything with a 37mm(?)short gun can move for those all important Flank/rear shots.......Any reading on this subject? PANZER ACES is very vauge on the topic of early war panzer tactics on the eastern front.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by scorpius1001:

PANZER ACES is very vauge on the topic of early war panzer tactics on the eastern front.

It's called 'survivor bias'.

[tar]

(I started with Panzerblitz which some of you guys are probably too young to remeber)

OK, I played Panzerblitz as a youth as well, but IIRC the T34/85 was a pretty mean tank unit. It was also the game that made me really like the Panther. The unit that was most deadly in Panzerblitz, but really wimpy in CMBO(!) are the Wespe and Hummel.

[Pzman]

Originally posted by Zitadelle:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panzerman:

I am not to worried... war time losses were three to one in the Germans favor and for a good reason. The Russians made lots of big tanks with good guns, but a green crew in 45 is still a green crew.

A green crew is still a green crew- correct. And, from Summer 1944 (Bagration) through the end of the war (Berlin), the Germans definitely had quite a few panzer units manned by green crews. Gone were the veteran units that had charged across the steppes in 1941-42 and tried to hold the line in 1943-1944. Or, the units were so understrength and ill-equipped they would translate into green crews in the CM methodology.</font>