Anyone else intimidated by Russian armor?

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Commissar:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mike:

A lot of the advantages that the Russians had simply won't appear in a tactical level game.

I wouldn't say that at all. Cost and rarity will definitely reflect what the Russian player can purchase, will purchase, and how much they can purchase. </font>

[killmore]

I am not intimidated at all.

In Zitadelle scenario KV1S were wimpy!

They had problems penetrating PzIIIs at 100m and could be killed by PzIIIs front much further distance.

So again - I am not intimidated...

I guess situation might be diffenent in other years...

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Panzerman:

I don't know about that Wittman didn't have much trouble going from a scout car to a StuG, to a Pz.IV, and finally the tiger... Also in many cases German Green troops still got more training then many Green Russians. In many cases the Russian just sent their men right to the front.

It may have escaped your attention, but Wittmann died in June 1944.

I would also be interested in some reading that outlines how German troops going to the front in 1944/5 were any better trained than Soviet troops of the same time - some sources would be nice, since all my reading indicates pretty much the opposite, with German troops being drafted in after summer 1944 receiving the most cursory of training, and performing correspondingly badly.

It may also have escaped your attention that in 1944/5 most German troops went straight to the front. Volkssturm, cadet schools that were disbanded or overrun. The situation was a mirror-image of the Red Army in 1941.

[Sergei]

I'm sure it can be quite a challenge for the Axis minors when you don't have anything else than toothpicks to take on that ISU. Well, play in forest terrain!

[Tero]

Originally posted by Sergei:

I'm sure it can be quite a challenge for the Axis minors when you don't have anything else than toothpicks to take on that ISU. Well, play in forest terrain!

And know thine enemy. The ISU comes with, what, 1 shot every two-three minutes. Long enough for you to insert that toothpick practically anywhere or spook the crew into fleeing the battlefield.

BTW, I hope they modelled the reload time so that reloading of that big arsed 152mm gun will be affected by movement.

[Nippy]

Originally posted by tero:

Originally posted by Sergei:

Long enough for you to insert that toothpick practically anywhere or spook the crew into fleeing the battlefield.

Provided that the 72 year old Conscript Volkssturm "Toothpick Tank Hunter" doesn't wet his depends and rout at the mere sight of an enemy tank.

But...But...our tanks are supposed to be uber! :eek:

[ September 17, 2002, 04:06 AM: Message edited by: Nippy ]

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by Andreas:

It may have escaped your attention, but Wittmann died in June 1944.

And killed by a Canadian, at that.

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by tero:

And know thine enemy. The ISU comes with, what, 1 shot every two-three minutes. Long enough for you to insert that toothpick practically anywhere or spook the crew into fleeing the battlefield.

BTW, I hope they modelled the reload time so that reloading of that big arsed 152mm gun will be affected by movement.

True --- and I'm wondering if the reload time of the Sturmmorser Tiger will be in the neighborhood of one shot every 15 minutes or so.

[Priest]

Panzerman you are also forgetting one little thing also (apparently lost on many folks especially a certain bunch that I know of). You are speaking of WITTMAN. He is ELITE, one of the best soldiers ever. Of course he is going to be good in whatever you put him in, possibly in any field of combat. He had "that certain something" that made him great.

Many folks use or defend the use of entire companies of ELITE and CRACK troops and justify it by saying that this was a Crack Unit. Newsflash, a crack unit may not have any Crack rated units in it. Probably just Vets and some Regs, with maybe one Green new recruit. In Villers Bocage in the CMBO game how many Tigers are ELITE in the Wittman's group? One if IIRC.

Anyhow comparing how tank crews for the Germans in 45 would be with Wittman's ability to switch weapons platforms easily is like saying that it must be easy to paint a portrait look what DaVinci did!

Nationality has ZERO bearing on being scared to death in a tin can you barely know how to work. Panzerman this rant is not directed soley at your but certain others who I hope "GET" it.

[Gryphon]

The thing you should worry about is a StuG III G in ambush position especially considering that optics are modelled..

Regards,

Gryphon

[Soddball]

I must admit that I'm not overly worried about taking on the run-of-the-mill Russian armour - mainly because their firepower at the beginning of the war is so ineffectual. It's no different to CMBO, and not being worried when you see a Panzer-IV on the battlefield. I'm most pleased by the sight of tungsten rounds for the 75mm gun carried on the Panzer-IV. Am I going to have fun with those.

[Tero]

Originally posted by Gryphon:

The thing you should worry about is a StuG III G in ambush position especially considering that optics are modelled..

Regards,

Gryphon

The down side is they still can't bloody well take a proper hulldown position. :mad:

[Zulu]

"Originally posted by Andreas:

It may have escaped your attention, but Wittmann died in June 1944.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And killed by a Canadian, at that."

Actually, I believe it was not a Canadian though Canadians were in the area.

From what I have read, Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by fire from tanks of "A" Squadron of Northamptonshire Yeomanry.

The date was August 8, 1944.

[Commissar]

Originally posted by Mike:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Commissar:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mike:

A lot of the advantages that the Russians had simply won't appear in a tactical level game.

I wouldn't say that at all. Cost and rarity will definitely reflect what the Russian player can purchase, will purchase, and how much they can purchase. </font>

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Commissar:

What I'm saying is that you can't divorce higher level doctrine and strategy from tactics and that is what it seems you want to do.

what I'm saying is that that is exactly what the CM game system does.

We play a tactical game that is almost completley removed from the historical doctrinal and strategic aspects.

CMBB is a little better in this respect in that we can simulate things like lack of supplies and replacements which couldn't be done in CMBO, and by chosing a theatre.

But to use my example - we can't change the ammo load out for our tanks depending upon whether we think there's an enemy armoured corps in the vicinity or we're only expectign to have to pound some PBI.

Sure, you'll get more fights that will be more the exception than the rule like IS-2s v. KT. Fights like this did happen but were extremely rare but one can definitely be sure these kinds of monster battles in CMBB games will happen a whole lot more frequently. Fighting with only infantry is rather dull..

Yep - but in "real life" the ammo load of the IS-2 reflected the rarity of it facing KT's - in CMBB the ammo load will continue to reflect the "real life" rarity, not the "CMBB reality".

Now please don't take me wrong on this- I'm only using ammo loads because it seems liek an easy example!!

[/QB]

Exactly how does availability make no affect at all? Does not rarity in the game reflect this? I think it's far more than just combat power that's going to affect the point value any particular piece of equipment has. If the point cost system only reflects combat power as you assume, than the whole point of rarity doesn't make sense. For rarity to make sense, at least to me, rarity must reflect the liklihood of facing various typses of equipment on the battlefield. Is that not the very definition of rarity? If not, I would be very interested to know how BFC ultimately determined the value/point system in CMBB.[/QB]

Well we'll see in a few days!!

but in the Beta demonstration I saw rarity was a multiplyer for the base points value, and the base point value, I hope, reflects fighting power, not strategic considerations.

So, for example, a KT might cost as much to build as 4 or 5 T-34's, but I bet it won't cost that much more for it's base point value. Rarity may well btring it up to that level - we'll have to wait and see.

[Spook]

Intimidated by Soviet armor? Not in any special way. After a PBEM game of CMBO two years ago, in which my 12 Sherman "Ronsons" and three TD's went up against TEN King Tigers, it's hard to match the kind of dread which I had going into that game.

But after killing six of the KT's, for the loss of three Shermans, by game's end, the lesson was confirmed: tactics, tactics, tactics. "Killer" tanks don't obviate tactics. (Except perhaps on a flat open map area with no terrain.)

The inclusion of German optics in CMBB ensures that late-war heavier German tanks & TD's, with veteran crews, will always be a concern at longer-range duels.

But I'm with gunnergoz & Commissar to a degree. I look forward to trying out the plethora of Soviet tanks and assault guns, especially from 1943 onwards where radio installation will be more common. T-34's moving around like light tanks. Heavily armored JS-2's with the profile of a medium instead of heavy tank. And the ISU assault guns with a heck of an HE wallop (even with their limited ammo load). And in terms of a gun with raw penetrating power, the Soviet 100mm ranks among the best.

Properly handled, the CM Soviet armor will be formidable indeed.

[Warmaker]

Since I played the Germans 99.9% of the time in CMBO it'll be great to face off against the Russians in all the time periods. The early war years are interesting but I'll try my hand anytime facing the odds in the desperate late war years.

[Pzman]

Originally posted by Priest:

Panzerman you are also forgetting one little thing also (apparently lost on many folks especially a certain bunch that I know of). You are speaking of WITTMAN. He is ELITE, one of the best soldiers ever. Of course he is going to be good in whatever you put him in, possibly in any field of combat. He had "that certain something" that made him great.

Many folks use or defend the use of entire companies of ELITE and CRACK troops and justify it by saying that this was a Crack Unit. Newsflash, a crack unit may not have any Crack rated units in it. Probably just Vets and some Regs, with maybe one Green new recruit. In Villers Bocage in the CMBO game how many Tigers are ELITE in the Wittman's group? One if IIRC.

Anyhow comparing how tank crews for the Germans in 45 would be with Wittman's ability to switch weapons platforms easily is like saying that it must be easy to paint a portrait look what DaVinci did!

Nationality has ZERO bearing on being scared to death in a tin can you barely know how to work. Panzerman this rant is not directed soley at your but certain others who I hope "GET" it.

I was not saying this at all, I am also fully aware Wittman was killed. My understanding of Sovet forces isn't wonderful, but from what I have read the years of the war didn't change it much. Also I was talking about some tank crews, I never said that all German panzer crews were ELITE! The numbers speak for themselfs though, still at least two to one in 1945. As for sources, I can't remember ever single book title I have ever read, sorry. I never clamed to be an expert either, so to say that I think I am is just a joke.

[ September 18, 2002, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Panzerman ]

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Nippy:

[

But...But...our tanks are supposed to be uber! :eek: [/QB]

But that goes both ways.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Panzerman:

My understanding of Sovet forces isn't wonderful, but from what I have read the years of the war didn't change it much. [snip] The numbers speak for themselfs though, still at least two to one in 1945.

Well, to say that the Soviets forces did not change much over the years war shows that you really don't kow a lot about them.

I'd still be interested in where your figures come from. First time I have seen this 2:1 figure. Is that the same as the 5 Shermans for 1 Panther figure?

[Pzman]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panzerman:

My understanding of Sovet forces isn't wonderful, but from what I have read the years of the war didn't change it much. [snip] The numbers speak for themselfs though, still at least two to one in 1945.

Well, to say that the Soviets forces did not change much over the years war shows that you really don't kow a lot about them. This is by no means saying that every German crew ko'd three Russian tanks before they lost theirs.

I'd still be interested in where your figures come from. First time I have seen this 2:1 figure. Is that the same as the 5 Shermans for 1 Panther figure?</font>

[Nippy]

"But that goes both ways."

Try telling it to the Grogs:

"What the!? My Uber-Duper German Tiger tank died! I thought German tanks could hold up entire armies, press the attack, cure cancer, bring peace to the middle east, and save little Billy by getting the liver for his liver transplant! This game is nerfed!"

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Nippy:

"But that goes both ways."

Try telling it to the Grogs:

"What the!? My Uber-Duper German Tiger tank died! I thought German tanks could hold up entire armies, press the attack, cure cancer, bring peace to the middle east, and save little Billy by getting the liver for his liver transplant! This game is nerfed!"

I am a "Grog".

[Priest]

Panzerman, I think you should have avoided bringing up Wittman, that may not have been wise as he is a poor example.

Regardless, the experience rating of a crew in CMBB and real life may not be the same thing. In real life you can make an arguement (I am not saying it is right, I am just saying you can make one) that a German crew considered regular in real life may be higher trained than a Russian crew considered regular in the Russian military, maybe (and that is a big maybe).

In CMBB though regulars are roughly equal in ability because ability not training are what they are describing, the only thing that differs is the tool that they use (the tank) and the tactics they use (the players).

What I find interesting is that I do not know how much the average tank crewman in the "vaunted" German army really was in some areas. I think they did know quite a lot on average about their weapon system (tank) that they were assigned to. But I am currently reading Gudarians (spelled right?) Memiors (again spelled right?) and there was much resistance to the employment of the Panzers according to what is now considered the de facto doctrine the Germans used. In fact many things went wrong during the Polish and French campaigns. It does not seem that a lot was changed during the period between the French and Russian campaigns, at least in the training of troops.

Germans had experience and better communications and such but the Russians and other countries either caught or even in some areas surpassed the Germans by the end of the war.

Regardless in CMBB I believe that nationality has no bearing on Green or Regular and no doubt the Germans were not producing the best and the brightest towards the end of the war.

[Pzman]

Your right... in CMBB that is true. In real life, a regular is different then in CM. After all anyone in the army before the war, may be called a "regular." The ability of the German tanks vs. the crew is the same as in any army. The people that believe that German tanks were the best, just because they were German, don't know that much about WWII. For the most part they did a good job. The ability of any tank can and will be hindered by crew experience. A Sherman tank with a good crew can be dangerous as well.

[ September 19, 2002, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: Panzerman ]