Panzer Leader Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Forgive me, but I was thinking about this and can't remember and my library is at home while I suffer at work. Were there Italians *in* Stalingrad? I know there were Italians (Areite?) on the road to Stalingrad, and I believe they held up the southern(?) arm of the defense, and I know that many were killed or surrendered as a result of Saturn, but what about during the height of fighting - October to December - did any Italians actually go into the city itself? Hoping for a little mini-history of the Italian participation during Stalingrad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterk Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 I don't think so. The Italians were between the Romanians and Hungarians on the left flank (in order to discourage the Romanians and Hungarians from attacking _each_ other). I have never heard of any intact Italian (or Hungarian or Romanian) units fighting within the city itself. (but of course, as always I could be wrong) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 I agree with Peter, the Italians were on the flank protecting the German army. It is on the flanks the Russians broke through and encircled the Germans and their allies. MikeT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted October 2, 2002 Author Share Posted October 2, 2002 Oh, so they were on the Northern flank? For some reason I always thought they were to the south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterk Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 ...but, then again, wouldn't _some_ units have sought refuge in the city itself after the encirclement? Hard to believe that _all_ of the satelite nations cracked so badly that no-one made it to the city. Curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterk Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Luckily I have Enemy At The Gates here at work with me! On the left/north: 2nd Hungarian, 8th Italian, 3rd Rumanian On the right/south: 4th Rumanian ...and, they were posted quite a long distance from Stalingrad (italians were about 200 miles away), so now I have no problem beliving that no-one made it into the city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Private Pike Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Again its either in Enemy at the gates or Stalingrad by Beevor, can't remember which and I'm at work. They mention that a truck convoy of about 100 Italians from one of the Divisions out on the flanks had come into Stalingrad to collect firewood when the Russians closed the Kessel and they remained during the following battles. Talk about bad luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CupOHemlock Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Actually, the Italians present at Stalingrad were there merely in the hope of one day being immortalized in a highly accurate computer simulation of WWII platoon and company level operations. They seem to have succeeded, and we can only breathe a sigh of relief for these stalwart few. Thank goodness they made it and therefore spared us the intense analysis of a military praxis gone awry. COH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally's World Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Originally posted by Private Pike: Again its either in Enemy at the gates or Stalingrad by Beevor, can't remember which and I'm at work. They mention that a truck convoy of about 100 Italians from one of the Divisions out on the flanks had come into Stalingrad to collect firewood when the Russians closed the Kessel and they remained during the following battles. Talk about bad luck.That was in 'Stalingrad' by Anthony Beevor. Yah, really bad luck! Speaking of Rumanians at Stalingrad, I read in Osprey Publishing's book "Germany's Eastern Front Allies" that three Rumanian generals died at Stalingrad personally leading charges at the enemy. [ October 02, 2002, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Wally's World ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liebchen Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Originally posted by Peterk: ...but, then again, wouldn't _some_ units have sought refuge in the city itself after the encirclement? "Refuge"? The city was a wartorn ruin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterk Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Still better than being out in the open...plus, apparently, they also had good firewood there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiggDogg Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 If I am not mistaken, the Italian 8th Army was along the Don to the north and west of Stalingrad by a substantial distance. There was a Roumanian army to Stalingrad's immediate north and west. In a later Russian offensive against this flank (a few weeks after the initial Russian thrust that surrounded Stalingrad), the Italian army was crushed. I would have to pull out one of those old books and old S&T games to check this all out. Cheers, Richard :cool: [ October 02, 2002, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: PiggDogg ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micheal Wittman Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Also there is a movie called " Attack and Retreat " the movie is apprently based on the Italians at Stalingard. Now I would never want to take movies as a source of lagit history though. : ) CheerZ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiggDogg Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Michael, Another person who knows about, much less having seen, "Attack & Retreat" !!!! Holy Smoke !!!! :eek: Another weird person besides me. By the way, it is a good movie. Cheers, Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micheal Wittman Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Actually PiggDogg, I just ordered " The Winter War " which is supposed to be good and " Do You Want To Live Forever Dogs Stalingrad " which is the 1958 version of the more recent "Stalingrad " movie. So far I would say the best movie i've seen in my life, yes that's a big one, is a 1970's russian movie called " Come and See ". Have a Good One! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 I believe "Come and See" is actually a mid 80's movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmbunnelle Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Yeah, "Come And See" was 1986 or so. It's by far my favorite film on the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 I watched "Come and See" with my 75-year-old Russian Mother-in-Law recently. She sat through it very absorbed by the film. Her comment at the end was, roughly, "yes, it was just like that." We, comfortably playing PC games in warm houses, debating ad infinitum about how many Tigers can dance on the head of a pin, have no idea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Private Pike Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 I also found "come and see" quite shocking, especially the final statement that during the war thousands (can't remmeber the exact number)of Russian villages were destroyed by the Germans. In Western Europe we remeber German massacres at Lidice, (a small village outside of Prague), Oradour-sur-Glane, (a small French village) and the Ardeatine Caves, (south of Rome), but this appears to have been a daily occurence on the Russian front. Finally checked on my previous post Beevor states that there were a couple of hundred Italians (from the firewood collecting party) and about 12,000 Roumanian traped at Stalingrad. A lot of troops did actually retreat into Staingrad. After the winter of 1941/42 the Germans learnt that to spend a night (let alone possibily 4 months) in an open fox hole on the Steppe in a Russian winter could easily mean death. So troops protecting the flanks had spent sometime building winter quarters consisting of bunkers and dugouts, even using wood from damaged houses in Stalingrad (it wasn't just a good source of firewood) When the Russians kicked them out of these quarters they had the choice of dieing on the freezing Steppe or retreating to the nearest builtup area-Stalingrad. The Sixth Army also had its logistics train behind Stalingrad and when the Russians appeared behind them these non-combat troops (A majority of the troops surronded at Staingrad)retreated to the relative safety of the defensive lines around Staingrad [ October 03, 2002, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Private Pike ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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