Comments about missed models

[Blackbear]

There are many comments in the Forum about missed models not included in the patch. Well, I wont mind to have more models that come with the game in the future, but if this will happen I think it will be necessary to make some priorities.

1st- Some people ask for large field and AA artillery models missing or shared from others. In my opinion that should be the last priority. Even althought has been reported that russian used them in direct fire often, that artillery batteries were placed far away from the 1st line, in advantage possitions. I used field Arty in CMBO custom battles and operations, and in a normal escenario size, they are mostly decoration.

2nd- I agree with those who claim for the T-28s, but I´m afraid that wont be done. Other models as the JS-II late, T-44 or JS-III would be great too, but the last two were very rare in the battlefield, they came too late in the war.

The new models for the BT-5/7 and many others, especially the Axis minors ones, are good compensation for those missed.

3rd-A model that I would really like to be done with its proper model are - dont lauth those friends of the monster afvs- the PzI series (PzIF the "little tiger" would be funny).

Well, in any case thank you a lot CMBB team for this supperb game and the patch.

[MikeyD]

First let me say- check out the awesome CV-33 tankette in the patch!

As to upcoming model redos - well, they do tell us that there's going to be a 1.02 patch one of these days.

I suspect what goes into the final patch will all depend on what their theoretical max size on a downloadable patch is. If they figure a compressed 30 meg file (for instance) is all they can manage then they'll have to do some picking and choosing of what goes in and what doesn't.

My own personal wish list includes more Russian guns- especially the 85mm; The SU-76(i) - that Russian assault gun on the PzIII chassis; and let's not forget the Stug IV!

[Le Tondu]

Well, I'll miss them.

But seriously, I'm for BFC/BTS taking their time in completing the game. No one should rush them and I'm certainly won't rush them.

The game is much improved with v1.01. (I absolutely love the new tracers.) Great job guys!

Yet, this "idea" that the game will be called "finished" when it really isn't, is plain ridiculous. I will however say that after tersely hearing "It"ll be out when its done!" for so long that if these models aren't completed, BFC/BTS should never, ever say that CMBB is finished. That would be a slap in the face for their customers if they did that.

"Finished" means finished. Look it up if you have any doubts about what it means. Why start a project if you aren't gonna complete it??? Was it only to take our money? I don't think so.

Our community is different. We aren't experiencing a situation here like some monster game companies give their customers. Living up to obligations really means something here. If it didn't, many of us would've cashed in their chips during the first week of basic training. After basic, it wasn't pleasant at times, but we stuck it out and lived up to our obligation. We got the job done, and in my humble opinion, I believe that BFC/BTS should too (eventually, at least.)

[Madmatt]

Le Tonde,

Thats a rather narrow version of the truth and it begs the question "Finished" according to whom?" And what exactly does "finished" mean?

What is being said is that we, Battlefront.com the game company and devoloper, would not release CMBB until WE thought it was ready. We would not allow any other factor to sway our release schedule which often happens to so many other games. Once the game was released we would also continue to support it with patches and enhancements for a period of time, which we obviously are now doing.

Internally we had a list of benchmarks that had to be acheived in a certain order and by a certain date. We knew full well that it was unlikely that certain vehicles would either be included or included without a shared model. When put in context those issues were minor in the extreme. We also knew that post release many of those same vehicles would indeed get enhanced with their own models.

To say that doing so means we released an unfinished product is not correct. The game was released AS WE INTENDED and even WHEN WE INTENDED IT. The realities of the computer industry means that patches would be required and those are also accounted for in our timelines. The recent release of 1.01 two months after the products launch shows us once more right on schedule.

Saying something is unfinished implies that an element is completely missing. Again this is false, those vehicles DO have models and textures, they may just be shared with other units although their internal data, the real MEAT is still accurate.

So will you ever get EVERY vehicle listed in the game with its own unique model in CMBB? Probably not. Just like you won't get thousands of new and unique face textures for every soldier on the screen or hundreds of unique voice actors for a given language. Abstractions will always occur in games and this is just another, albeit minor, example of one.

1.02 will undoubtably include some more models and textures and will, just like 1.01, make the game even better and feature filled.

Madmatt

[ November 22, 2002, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Madmatt ]

[Apache]

I miss Linda Evangilista

[Silvio Manuel]

Apache,

"that" Chris Isaac's video, right? ; >

Le Tondu,

We never got all the models in CMBO either, I think StuG IIIG's were on the Panzer IV/StuG IV chassis, to name one. S'no big deal, IMHO.

[Yeknodathon]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

So will you ever get EVERY vehicle listed in the game with its own unique model in CMBB? Probably not.

Just a thought, Madmatt

Errm... possiblity of letting modders resolve the vehicle texture deficit?

Not that I'm proposing a community of Bohemian artistic license and questionable descent to moral corruption in the pursuit of the noble Stug... well, okay, I am...

*backs away with deferential bowing*

Alex

[Madmatt]

I said models, not textures but even if we allowed 3rd party textures into the game like you suggested the amount of time needed to coordinate, test and implement the code to add the textures would take much more time than if we just did them ourselves from the get go.

Madmatt

[Pvt. Ryan]

Madmatt, I don't think Le Tonde is saying that CMBB was released before it was done or is an incomplete product. I think he is saying that it isn't "finished" until all the vehicles have their own models. If all the models are not done, it wouldn't be because you couldn't do it for technical reasons, but because BFC decided to move on to CM3. I tend to agree with him, but I understand where BFC is coming from. My hope is that most, if not all, the half track and ACs get their own models.

[ November 22, 2002, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: Pvt. Ryan ]

[MikeyD]

There were discussions early in the Beta process about whether to release new models with placeholder graphics for modders to take care of and the answer was NO NO NO!

It seems while most CM buyers will download a patch only small percentage will attempt to install 3rd party mods into the game. And a shared 'finished' graphic between vehicles was considered infinitely preferable to scattering unfinished polygons throughout the game.

My personal opinion about whether the game is 'finished':

CMBB is the wholly owned property of BFC. If they say it's finished its finished. If they want to play with it some more and give us a free(!) patch to download we should thank them on bended knee for their generosity. Also, CM is'nt a hobby for them, it's a business. They could've poked and prodded the game til doomsday and still not made everybody happy. But being a money-making concern, you can't fault 'em for wanting to get their product to market!

[ November 22, 2002, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Kwazydog]

Guys, we had a choice here...

We could have removed any vehicle that didnt have a unique 3D model, and the option was discussed. I didnt want to take this option though as I feel it would be silly to reduce the scope of a wargame in exchange for graphical representation of vehicles.

So, to say that the game is incomplete simply becuase we chose to add in more vehicles that we could visually represent is incorrect and to be totally honest its not fair to say this. The game was complete when it shipped and now we are adding to it. Irconally it seems you would feel that the game would be more 'complete' if we cut out those added vehicles with shared models and reduce CMBB's scope. It sure would have been easier for us, as it would have saved a HEAP of research time.

If people have an issue with vehicles we cant update before we move on, we could still consider removing them. Chances are we wont though as most people Im sure would rather the greater tactical scope more vehicles will bring to a wargame.

Ryan, along with time constraints unfortuantely there are technical reasons here we need to take into account, too. We will one day need to print more CD's including the latest patch at that time, so thus we need to keep any added model textures within our CD space. Unfortuantely we cant do too much about this.

Blackbear, yes, we will probably be focusing on the earlier war vehicles next, but no promises .

Dan

[ November 22, 2002, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[flammenwerfer]

Kwazy

My vote for the next patch would be for the pz1 and IS-3...History aside the is-3 would get a lot more game time (and customer satisfaction) than those cute, little rivet- boxes in the first patch.

.2 cents

[Commissar]

Concerning space, what was the barrier/s that prevented you guys from simply using 2 CDs instead of just one? There are many games that require 2 or more CDs for installation purposes. Was it cost? Bulk? Didn't want to raise the price of CMBB? Just curious.

[Kwazydog]

Yeknodathon, actually many of the modders are helping out already, and they have been a great help. You need to keep in mind that most of these guys have a real life that limits their time they can help out though, so whereas we can probably do a vehicle a day most modders would probably only be able to do one every week or so.

Flammenwerfer, I totally agree it would be fun, but I am pretty sure we will be focusing on combat vehicles first and foremost . With the rarity system in place youll chances are that you will rarely see one in battle.

Commissar, to be totally honest I dont know . I would say that it is defiantely something we will have to do for the rewrite though, as a guess.

Dan

[Vanir Ausf B]

IS-2, IS-1, StuG IV, PSW 234/4

Off the top of my head, those would be the ones I'd like to see the most. I personally think that if choices must be made as to which will be corrected and which will not, the units that players will use the most should be given priority. Early war tankettes would be at the bottom of my list.

[Pvt. Ryan]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Ryan, along with time constraints unfortuantely there are technical reasons here we need to take into account, too. We will one day need to print more CD's including the latest patch at that time, so thus we need to keep any added model textures within our CD space. Unfortuantely we cant do too much about this.

I thought you were past that point already. Can we lose the Sherman for a new IS-II model?

[Wol]

Oh yippee! at last the proletariat are marching, and the inevitable forces of history might cause the production of the penultimate stalinist weapons, the T-28

(Penultimate because of course there is that-which-no-greater-can-be-conceived: The T35). I see it all - Mikhail Tuchachevski and DEEP BATTLE!

(Oh and sadly lots of burnt out soviet tanks.

I can deam!

[flamingknives]

Give me Halftracks!

Please?

I'd love to see what that triple MG AA wagon looks like.