Supply&Demand - solution to gamey underpriced units

[killmore]

I think supply and demand is the best solution to gamey SMG units, Pupchens (as well as those quad 37mm vehicles)

If everyone starts buying SMGs they would go up in price. Otherwise they would drop in price if no one wants them.

No more 100 SMGs platoons. No more 20 pupchens.

This is something that BTS could do for online games. Units prices could be obtained from BTS server every time. Unit selections could go back to BTS server to "adjust prices" in the future.

In fact I will add it to my online multiplayer campaign. (If BTS ever provides API for it)

[Herr Kruger]

Um, no... thereby the most common (historically) units become the most expensive?! LOL!

[killmore]

Originally posted by Herr Kruger:

Um, no... thereby the most common (historically) units become the most expensive?! LOL!

Nope. You can adjust price based on "pool" of units. That will produce smaller price increases for common units.

Besides no one asks you to purchase common units - people don't buy common units 99% of the time. I bet there were more JagTigers killed in CMBO then were ever produced. If everyone will go for common units you could purchase rare super tanks cheaply.

[Pud]

This certainly is a problem with CM, I always thought CC3 did a good job of unit pools, thus preventing masses of engineering units assaults (CC3). CMBB will hopefully have this fixed.

The way we (myself and my friends) fixed it is to have purchase guidelines (see my website, link below). We have found they work very well and lead to balanced games, hence are more fun to play. Whether anyone else would want to play you given these purchse restriction is anyones guess.

[JasonC]

I agree with the basic idea, that prices that adjust based on player's own assessments of their usefulness would be superior to a single fixed price set. But I don't think the centralized price registry idea is workable.

I suggest instead using the principle of "you cut, I choose". Any player can specify changes to unit prices he thinks would be more fair. The other guy can either accept them, and then get his choice of side, or reject them, but give choice of side to the proposer. This works in effect like a bid-ask system.

To actually impliment the changes, just pad the point budgets 250 points or so, then select forces under the agreed budget instead of the one given to the program. That is, if you want a 1000 pt meeting engagement, set the points to 1250 but then buy only 1000, according to the revised price schedule. The padding should cover all cheaper units.

So, say someone thinks SMGs are way underpriced, and wants all infantry with automatics to cost 1 more point per SMG. He proposes that to his opponent. The opponent can agree, and take either side. Or he can insist on the default prices - but only if he lets the proposer pick his side (e.g. take the Germans, buy SMGs, and try to prove his point).

[Panzer Leader]

How abouut a simple price increase for every additional unit after the first that some one buys, for instance:

1st puppchen, base price

2nd puppchen, base +10%

3rd puppchenn, base +25%

It could be done with every unit across the board, and even for common units (infantry, tanks, etc) it would encourage large unit purchasing (e.g. battalion instead of company or a bunch of platoons, or Hvy weapons company instead of 25 HMGs)

In a way, by using large unit purchase price deductions CMBO already does this, but I think a more aggressive plan would be a benefit.

Just a random idea...

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

How abouut a simple price increase for every additional unit after the first that some one buys, for instance:

1st puppchen, base price

2nd puppchen, base +10%

3rd puppchenn, base +25%

I don't like that at all. It prevents people from buying realitsic units, which have platoons of one tank model, or batteries of one AT gun.

[Panzer Leader]

Originally posted by redwolf:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

How abouut a simple price increase for every additional unit after the first that some one buys, for instance:

1st puppchen, base price

2nd puppchen, base +10%

3rd puppchenn, base +25%

I don't like that at all. It prevents people from buying realitsic units, which have platoons of one tank model, or batteries of one AT gun.</font>

[Cani]

First of all, I'm still waiting for the game, so this might be unvalid. As I recall it one of the flaws in CM is that MGs can only target one unit at a time. So, when all those SMGs are rushing the MG nest only one team pays the price. Isn't that a major reason this tactic is superior?

[Ligur]

Originally posted by Cani:

First of all, I'm still waiting for the game, so this might be unvalid. As I recall it one of the flaws in CM is that MGs can only target one unit at a time. So, when all those SMGs are rushing the MG nest only one team pays the price. Isn't that a major reason this tactic is superior?

Right you are. SMG units are hard to suppress when they rush you, firing their guns while running at full speed.

You might know this or not, but MGs have been fix0red or somefink in CMBB. Now they suppress targets first, and do not attempt to destroy one totally and then move on. So a platoon of SMG squads charging a HMG would each face fire in turn, and would become suppressed, never reaching the target and taking cover instead. Also, running will not work the same way. You DON'T shoot while you run, unless from extremely close range. Instead you "assault" if you want to return fire which also makes for slower movement.

So SMG squads will be slower of they want to fire back beyond 10 meters and will get suppressed more efficiently by MGs, like all infantry.

Also, if the MG is under threat of being overrun it gets into a "hot" fire mode or somefink and will spray full auto of terrible volume on the targets.

Maybe this all will properly address the gamey SMG squad problem in CMBB.

Oh, and SMG units spend their ammo faster, compared to riflesquads. I see them getting even less general purpose than they are now.

[ March 07, 2002, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: Ligur ]

[Gen-x87H]

The easiest way to deal with SMG hoards is to tell the person you are playing they are not allowed.

Gen

[Toad]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

How abouut a simple price increase for every additional unit after the first that some one buys, for instance:

1st puppchen, base price

2nd puppchen, base +10%

3rd puppchenn, base +25%

I've thought about a similar idea, but using a price scale that comes from the historical rarities of different units.

Some units would be very common and not suffer an increasing-price penalty. Others would be very rare with a rising price scale that modelled the slim chance of ever seeing more than a few of them in a battle.

The prices could also be adjusted according to the time of the battle, so that the historical availabilites of different units during '44 and '45 could be modelled.

I would also have a master "on / off" switch for this, so people who didn't want to play with the historical constraints could turn it off.

[MikeyD]

Trouble with gamey SMG squads? Try engaging them at near-max range for a rifle company. The SMGs are murder at close range but nearly useless if engaged from a distance.

It sounds like there are 2 schools of thought among CM gamers- the 'historical recreationists', and the 'maximum firepowerists'. The former will tend to pick 75mm gun Shermans to fight with, the latter will tend to buy a couple dozen 57mm recoilless rifles.