Flocks of a Feather

[Bruno Weiss]

What with all the little peeps of information seeping out here and there on BB, one important aspect remains a mystery. It may indeed be that the nonexposure agreement forbids mention, but no doubt most grogs are wondering. Has there been any indication that the background bird chirps have been authenticated to the East European region?

[jeffsmith]

Oh Please Yes

We can't be having threads like this again can we ?

THE ULTIMATE NIGGLE

[Philippe]

I would think that with all the sound editing talent out there, by now someone would have found a recording of the correct continental birdsongs and stuck them into the appropriate places on the background sound files.

If someone actually does this, I'll ghostwrite the CMMOS mod for them.

[Michael Emrys]

I definitely believe that when the AAR screen appears at the end of a fight, what you should hear on the soundtrack is the calls of crows, rooks, or magpies (whichever is appropriate to the region).

Michael

[Andreas]

Or, the savage Kite...

[WWB]

Actully, we should not hear birds in ambient sound. They did not stick around combat areas.

WWB

[Sabotai]

What about dogs barking? I loved that in CC3.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by wwb_99:

Actully, we should not hear birds in ambient sound. They did not stick around combat areas.

WWB

Sebastian Faulks gave his WW1 novel the title Birdsong because WW1 Western Front veterans remembered the birds continuing to sing throughout the war.

[Michael Dorosh]

...and in the sky, the larks, still bravely singing, fly.

Scarce heard amidst the guns below.

John Macrae

In Flanders Fields

[aka_tom_w]

and...

for your listening pleasure..

In Panzer Elite those cows in the ETO NEVER stop mooing !

-tom w

[Bruno Weiss]

Actully, we should not hear birds in ambient sound. They did not stick around combat areas.

Now I'm not so sure about that. I mean, first, there has to be combat to begin with. There is always the first time for an area, and it would have to be persistant combat in order to persuade the feathered lil critters to leave their favorite nesting grounds. Witness the attempts in modern urban areas to dislodge swarms of crows and blackbirds who've taken up residence, dispite constant efforts using loud speakers and fireworks. They don't move along without serious motivation.

And, remember when Sgt. Saunders (Vic Morrow), in Combat would see some flock of birds fly up from the bushes some distance away and knew right away that was where to place the harrassment fire cause the Krauts had disturbed the birds. Exactly, see those things happened. Now, the question is; what do Russian crows sound like. Is it the same caww-caww heard here in North America. What is the life of the crow like in Russia? These are important issues driving right to the heart of historical authenticity. Now, turns out, crows seem to have a tought time of it these days over in the Motherland. Read about it here:

Pravda

[ August 01, 2002, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

Now, the question; what do Russian crows look like? More to the point, what do they sound like. Is it the same caww caww heard here in North America.

Even here in North America I have discoverd that there is some considerable variation in the sound of the crow call. Here in the Pacific Northwest where I now reside, the crows do not have the medium-pitch "caw-caw" you would hear in, say. the Midwest. Instead, their call is reminiscent of the raven, being somewhat of a "crakk-crakk".

As a consequence, I think it is essential that BTS sends a team to Eastern Europe with the necessary recording equipment to get an accurate representation of the authentic sounds. Otherwise, all the work they have put into the game will be discredited and in vain.

Michael

[Firefly]

"Are you going to caw or croak, I wonder," said Lu-Tze, apparantly to himself.

"Croak," said the raven.

"So you're not the raven we saw on the other side of the mountain, then?"

"Me? Gosh, no, " said the raven. "That's croaking territory over there." .

- Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time .

[edgars]

This is how our latvian crow looks like.

[clcaldwell]

Russian crows also go "crrak-crrak" but they reverse the R.

[Bruno Weiss]

Now this is interesting. The Corvus corone is partially white, where the Eastern North American crow is a purplish black. Ofcourse, the bird images were never used in CM, but the sounds were. Robins mainly I believe. North American at that if I'm not mistaken. Be nice if some sound overs could be located. Matt was in a search for Italian sound overs a thread or two back. He would probally appreciate us all sending him crow calls.

[Guest Mike]

I've figured out hte reason for htis problem - BFC haven't modeled the insect life correctly!!

They've put Nth American insects into hte Steppe, and so the Russian fauna has left the game in search of a decent feed, and, as always, nature abhors a vacuum and Nth American wildlife have made it their home!!

Another of those pesky worm problems that seem to pervade cyberspace thesse days!!

[Philippe]

At the risk of being tastelessly serious, I just did a quick web search, only to discover that I'd done it a few months ago and had gotten too distracted to follow up.

There are a lot of birders out there. And they're obsessive. Almost as bad as CM modders. Some of them post birdcalls on the web (undownloadable bits of European nightingale and oreole), and a couple of them sell cd's in the UK for thirteen quid with all the European bird calls.

So all we have to do is figure out which European bird it is that should be chirping in the background. Then we convince someone who lives in the UK with some sound skill to buy the CD and...do the pirate thing on the little bird. Then we give the pirated bird to one of our German or American sound-editing experts, and I promise that I will write up the CMMOS version. [CMMOS is necessary because there is no way we will agree as to which bird, so we'll need to switch in and out of the different background sounds featuring thrush, lark, nightingale, and loon.] I'd even take a shot at the sound editing myself, but being around when I turn those things on must be really hilarious to watch.

And because figuring out which bird to use really will be the hard part (since most of us are orninthologically challenged), I'll even volunteer to call the American Museum of Natural History in New York and talk about it with one of the bird curators. But I'll only do it if I know that there will be some follow-through with the rest of this.

And after we fix the North American robin, we can get to work on that silly arctic tern...

[ August 02, 2002, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Philippe ]

[Bruno Weiss]

This might work. Actually, nearly vearing off into seriousness myself, I always liked the bird calls in CM but they sounded too familiar. Since I don't live anywhere near Europe, I figured they might not be OC (orninthologically correct). Bad form you know to call a Sparrow a Finch. Even worse if your a fighter pilot. Through several threads that arose on the subject, it was finally determined through grog consensus that the bird calls were indeed incorrect for Europe.

I'm sure when BB comes out, bird call assessment threads will pop up, somewhere between tree leaf correctness and whether or not the dirt is the correct shade for Mother Russia. At that point, is when we need to strike. We garner the correct bird calls and put em out there for a CMMOS mod. (You realize ofcourse, this will spawn a host of sound effect mods. Moo's, barks, crickets, frogs, and honks). Speaking of which, why has no one up until now noted that the Kubelwagons, jeeps, and trucks do not have any horns? It just ain't right.

[Mud]

When planning what birds are appropriate, don't forget to take into account not only the front -- perhaps Crimean birds differ from Finnish birds -- but the month. It would be a shame if a migratory bird were heard at the wrong time and place...

(And... will CMBB support bird call mods at a higher sampling rate? And winterized bird calls?)

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Philippe:

...thrush, lark, nightingale, and loon.

How many of those actually spend part of their year in Eastern Europe? Although rather ornithologically challenged myself, I was under the distinct impression that the loon, for one, was exclusively a North American bird. Anybody able to straighten me out here?

Michael

[André]

LOL @ this thread... I hope BTC doesnt read it, hehe.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Heinz 25th PzReg:

LOL @ this thread... I hope BTC doesnt read it, hehe.

Frankly I am shocked and disappointed that you would take that tack. All the proposals in this thread were made in utter seriousness with the intended good of the product and hobby in mind. We're trying to make a contribution to the study of history here, in a spirit of true professionalism, and I for one will thank you to take your sarcasm and kindly leave the premises. Hmph!

Miguel Tonto Pronto

[Bruno Weiss]

Michael is quite correct. Why I dare say this thread is every bit as much a labor of love as was the great hull turning debate, or the Normandy bovine study. And who can forget the passionate reports delivered on the accuracy of CM to portray a house explosion.

Remember, historical accuracy demands good history, and history is a complicated subject. Often misinterpreted by the less acquainted who overlook the obscure. Why even BFC has pointed out that the obscure is probably common. Now, here in this thread we have an excellent example of that theory in practice. Bird calls are common every day occurances around the globe, and were heard on every battlefield in WWII and yet precise knowledge about the appropriate types and seasonal variences which are required to portray historical accuracy is very obscure. To crow, or not to crow, that my friends is the question.

Thanks to the persistance of those hardy forum souls who strive for historical accuracy in CM, we now know that the Robin in BO would have been a more familiar sound in Hoboken, or Punxsutawney, PA., than the fields of Normandy. And as small an item as that might seem to the uninitiated on this here forum, it is never the less of huge importance to the vast majority of forum residents.

So you see lil feller Michael is right when he points out that this is a quest, nah, dare I say a duty. A duty to seek out what is true, and pure, and righteous, so that our beloved CM wargame line is the most accurate it can be. Remember son, here at the forum we don't dabble in history, we make it!

[Michael Emrys]

And we haven't even started on flies, mosquitos, fleas, ticks, lice and other vermin, though nearly every account of the war that is of any stature acknowledges the almost primal significance of these factors on the fighting ability of the men in the field.

I think it's time CM began to recognize the need for proper latrines, bathing and delousing facilities and other hygenic necessities.

Michael