On Molotovs and poking your head out for a look see

[Mark Gallear]

Is it me but can you actually get Russian soldiers to throw their molotovs? I have been playing with regular and conscript troops through a lot of games now and I have never got one to squad or even a tank hunter unit to throw a single bottle. Can you actually kill tank commanders who stick their heads out now? In CMBO it happened frequently, perhaps too frequently but now I have only seen crewmen killed from rounds that penetrate the armour.

I have had the suggestion that they drink the stuff – which seems to be the only reason why they bother to carry the stuff!

I managed to ambush a Finnish tank with a tank hunter unit and instead of throwing a molotov, they submachinegunned the tank! The tank commanders head reappeared a turn later!

[roadkill]

For what it's worth, I've had lots of Molotovs thrown, but all that did was alert everyone where the squad was, leading to their prompt death.... I'd be curious to learn whether they were actually effective in real life. It seems to me that unless they caused a gas tank to explode/burn, or the burning fluid got into the target tank, I'm not sure how effective they would be. On the other hand, why would all those infantry carried them around unless they sometimes worked???

On your other question, I've had lots of tank crews loose people when they weren't buttoned up. In conscript/green crews, that usually means they panic/rout....

[Wretch]

I saw a Russian SMG squad attempt to take out a Flammpanzer with a molotov. Those poor Russkies never stood a chance.

I think that molotovs were generally used against tanks of a lower elevation in an effort to get flaming liquid through hatches, holes and observation ports, most commonly on an unbuttoned tank. The fire inside the tank was what knocked it out.

[Mark Gallear]

What did you do Roadkill - order an attack from hidden - as per panzerfausts in CMBO or did they just do it by themselves? :confused:

Not sure a molotov necessarily has to actually damage the tank - around a pint of burning liquid covering a tank including the vents will cause the crew to start breath in smoke - most will panic and bail in this situation. However - I would not dispute that it is an extremely ineffective and dangerous way to take out a tank.

Interesting that somebody has lost a lot of commanders to peeking - I routinely MG opposition tanks and I am sure that I have not done a thing to them so far. Not lost any commanders myself - the autoclose hatch feature seems to save them every time.

[futureman]

the thing that bugs me is that the troops will go to the molotovs before they will grenades.

It seems to me a grenade would be more effective than a molotov against a PZ.

[arkai88]

I have actually taken out a Tiger with a smg squad armed with molotovs and grenades. They threw the molotov and scored a top hit - then finished the tank off with the grenades.

[tiborhead]

I believe the tank hunter teams use their SMGs to make the tank button up. It should be much more difficult to spot the offending TH team that way. So far, I haven't had a single case of a molotov taking out a tank. Now that I think about it, I don't believe I've EVER knocked out a tank with soviet AT teams! It's much easier to do with german teams, as they have the grenade bundles and those panzer mines. I usually set the team up with a small covered arc facing the flank of the suspected route of advance. As germans, I usually get mixed results.

[Windopaene]

I was able to do this just the other day. Mechanized infantry versus a Pz IV. Molotov thrown. Top penetration. One bailed out Panzer.

So it CAN happen

[Abbott]

I have had squads knock out panzers with them.

[Andrew H.]

I've had several tanks knocked out by Molotovs; I think it was pretty early in the war, though.

[White Phosphorus]

The infantry seem to lack any sort of intelligence when fighting tanks. I mean, if they attack it and screw up, shouldn't they keep throwing everything they've got until it's dead, or at least run off before it can traverse its turret. But they just sit there, waiting for it to turn around and blast them with canister at point blank range. Infantry go berserk when fighting other infantry at close range, as their ammo expenditures indicate, but when fighting tanks, they go brain dead.

In fact, I am disappointed by the lack of any sort of morale effect of armor on infantry. For example, Steel Panthers had tank fright. Where infantry would try to get away from a tank if all anti-tank weapons have been expended, and there are no AT weapons near by.

[Olaf]

I read a article many years ago about a WWII Pacific island battle that described Japanese infantry prying open the hatches of an American light tank that was disabled. They then poured gasoline down the hatch and set the crew/tank on fire. Horrible but very effective.

[marcusB]

Would it unbalance the game if you had the option of throwing molotovs at occupied buildings like a satchel charge?

[White Phosphorus]

I would be more interested in allowing to throw grenades into buildings like satchel charges. At least in SPR and in BOB both Germans and Americans threw grenades into buildings without knowing if there was anybody in them.

[marcusB]

It seems to me that molotovs would be more effective than random grenades, although slower to take effect. Instead of dampening the effect, interior walls would be so much more firewood.

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by White Phosphorus:

In fact, I am disappointed by the lack of any sort of morale effect of armor on infantry. For example, Steel Panthers had tank fright. Where infantry would try to get away from a tank if all anti-tank weapons have been expended, and there are no AT weapons near by.

It's efinitely not true that Tanks lack 'morale effect' on the enemy in CMBB or CMBO, for that matter. One of the best ways to get an already demoralized enemy infantry unit to surrender is to order a tank to MOVE towards it until it's practically on top of it. The tank will creep up on the infantry unit, MGs blazing, and the unit will usually surrender once the tank gets within 30m or so. Bagged a whole 45mm gun crew this way recently in a PBEM. Mmmm - nothing like those double prisoner points to run up your victory percentage!!

Of course, this is also a great way to lose a tank if the enemy squad isn't as demoralized as you think, or if your opponent has another infantry unit nearby with AT capability. . .

In my experience it is true, though, that infantry will rarely try to run away and break contact with an enemy AFV in CM (except, of course, if specifically ordered to do so), even if it has little realistic chance of hurting the tank and staying put is clearly suicide - generally, the infantry either panicks, then routs, and cowers where it is until the tank manages to kill every last member of the doomed unit, or it panicks, then routs, and then surrenders to the tank.

I've never had a tank bear down on me with MGs blazing, so I can't really say whether "stay and surrender" or "try and outrun the MG bullets" is a more realistic infantry panic reaction to tanks. I'm sure both happened.

I do feel it's worth considering whether dedicated IAT teams (such as Tank Hunters and Shreck teams) should have a version of the "Shoot and Scoot" command available to them - a command that would allow you to order a PzFaust-equipped Tank Hunter team, for example, to pop up and take a Faust shot at a nearby tank, but then run back through a nearby building (and out of contact with the tank) if the shot failed. It seems like a logical type of thing for an IAT team to do. OTOH, it might just be too much micromanagement.

Cheers,

YD

[mike the wino2]

Personally haven't had a lot of luck with Tank-hunters. In the demo I would get 1 or 2 Panzers in on of the scenarios...can't remember the name, really long map, ineffective Ruskie ATGs and ATRs. A most challenging bit.

Tank hunter teams seem best suited for ambush, either inf or AFVs. At least that's my experience with them.

[Mark Gallear]

The discussion seems to have moved on a bit to the morale effect of tanks on infantry. The Advanced Squad Leader System had a “lightening war” morale effect on infantry in the early WW2 period, on the basis that infantry were not used to tanks and were not generally equipped with AT weapons.

My experience with CM2 is that conscript Russian infantry break and run away from just about any kind of threat – tanks, infantry, AT guns been pushed to close to them! I agree, whole heartily with the post on morale moaning that infantry would realistically stay in their foxholes rather than try and run for some other cover a few hundred yards away while under heavy automatic fire.

On the tank equation side, I have noticed that infantry can scare tanks. I have had Italian tanks with no MG (they can fire HE), backoff when they found Russian infantry close to the location they were been ordered to go. This may sound silly but tanks in reality are much more threatened by infantry at very close ranges than are the infantry.

Still not got anybody to throw a Molotov let alone get a kill with one. (I know that Finns can do it - well throw them anyway!) Any comments on the chances of tank commanders becoming casualties from peeking?

Do I get a prize from having members 10986 and then 10985 reply to my posts? I must be lucky!

[Fetchez la Vache]

Managed to 'knock out' 2 German panzers with Molotov Cocktails (MC) last night whilst playing the "A Morning in the Zoo" (? title).

Both tanks had 3-4 MC's thrown at them, a single hit scored on both, both bailed with full (veteran) crews within 1 minute of being struck (ie didn't lose personnel inside the tank itself). So for me it worked, but it the MC's caused 'abandonments' rather than actual damage to the tanks. Obviously helped therefore that the tanks were exposed, under heavy small arms fire, with broken/routed German infantry nearby.

Btw all MC's thrown from upper stories of buildings. Personally I always try to do this, I have no idea whether MC's are more likely to knock out vehicles when thrown from a height, but I like to do it anyway...

Interesting thought about MC's being thrown into buildings. How about thrown directly in the anti-personnel role as well? Was this done in practice?

[Mark Gallear]

Actually got some Russian infantry to throw their molotovs – they did nothing but I was surprised how far the burning graphic appeared away from the chucker. The sound of breaking glass was nice.

Interestingly the game was set in first month of the invasion. I ordered no attack or set any covering arcs – they did on own accord from hiding.

[blazethedog]

I haven't had too much luck with MC's taking out tanks but I love to use them on open topped vehicles. Russians took out a HT and SP in a quick battle I played yesterday that was a real blood bath. Personnally, the AI is good but doesn't seem to realize how vulnerable these lightly armored vehicles are. They were both taken out in a large town after they drove right up to the firing line that had developed. It was getting late in the battle and I had about 4 units with real low ammo and figured, what the heck, let's see what they can do. Sent them charging about under cover fire and the next thing you know there is glass breaking all over the place and the SP blew sky high. Those Marders are nothing but bait when the germans are on the offense. HEHE!

[Renaud]

The russian ATG-1 (or RPG-1?) finned AT-grenade thingies are pretty good. They almost always seem to hit if the AT team isn't supressed, and the results are often terminal even for heavy armor (they penetrate the top).