Yup, camera rotation is inferior.

[Canuck]

well I guess I'd better wade into this debate

I only have the demo but I think the control is fine

you do know that you can still move from side to side if you hold the shift key no matter where your cursor is on the screen right?

How anyone can get upset by having one less key to worry about is beyond me.

And how is it completely illogical that circular rotation is at the top and side to side at the bottom? It really wouldnt make any difference to me either way-it's not like I was born being used to rotate the game from either the top or the bottom. It's just something I adapt to.

[AnonymousOxide]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

I'm sorry too AO, I did a search on some of your posts over the last thiry days (more than a few were on various aspects of the camera) and you are not the person I thought you were (first red-face) and I was joking about the height thing since it was a thread recently locked, sorry if my joke was too obscure (second red-face)

You know, I actually don't have any problems with the new commands, and I would hate it if BFC spent a bunch of time on this or that change, etc. But then, that's just me, they are the ones who have to somehow come to temrs with what the masses want (and who the masses are ) and if they have the time, resources to do it.

Well apology accepted, thanks.

Anyway the reason I'm suggesting this so much is that I somehow doubt it would take "a bunch of time" to do it. Then again, I don't know anything about hard coding and programming, so maybe it's not even possible.

[AnonymousOxide]

Originally posted by Canuck:

well I guess I'd better wade into this debate

I only have the demo but I think the control is fine

you do know that you can still move from side to side if you hold the shift key no matter where your cursor is on the screen right?

How anyone can get upset by having one less key to worry about is beyond me.

And how is it completely illogical that circular rotation is at the top and side to side at the bottom? It really wouldnt make any difference to me either way-it's not like I was born being used to rotate the game from either the top or the bottom. It's just something I adapt to.

Do you play first person shooters? If so, have you ever picked one up that had vertical movement set to inverse as default? This is what I would call illogical since I'm not flying an airplane, and I should not have to adapt to it.

[Sitzkrieg]

Originally posted by AnonymousOxide:

Anyway the reason I'm suggesting this so much is that I somehow doubt it would take "a bunch of time" to do it. Then again, I don't know anything about hard coding and programming, so maybe it's not even possible.

As someone who is a programmer by trade, I love it when someone who has never written a line of code tells me "that shouldn't be too hard to do". I'm sure BTS does as well.

Until the telepathic user interface is developed, the one that guesses everything you wanted in a piece of software and performs it exactly in the manner you invisioned, not everyone will be satisfied with what a piece of software can and can't do. Some will like what it can do, some won't.

Apparently you don't. Sucks to be you.

[ October 07, 2002, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: sitzkrieg ]

[AnonymousOxide]

Originally posted by sitzkrieg:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by AnonymousOxide:

Anyway the reason I'm suggesting this so much is that I somehow doubt it would take "a bunch of time" to do it. Then again, I don't know anything about hard coding and programming, so maybe it's not even possible.

As someone who is a programmer by trade, I love it when someone who has never written a line of code tells me "that shouldn't be too hard to do". I'm sure BTS does as well.

Until the telepathic user interface is developed, the one that guesses everything you wanted in a piece of software and performs it exactly in the manner you invisioned, not everyone will be satisfied with what a piece of software can and can't do. Some will like what it can do, some won't.

Apparently you don't. Sucks to be you.</font>

[Sitzkrieg]

Originally posted by AnonymousOxide:

Feel free to look stupid now, a-hole.

Why? You're doing such a good job of looking stupid yourself. And defining an a-hole as well.

[ October 07, 2002, 12:27 AM: Message edited by: sitzkrieg ]

[Sitting Duck]

I like the new camera navigation method. I disagree with both your points, but an option would be a great enhancement.

[ianc]

Until the telepathic user interface is developed, the one that guesses everything you wanted in a piece of software and performs it exactly in the manner you invisioned, not everyone will be satisfied with what a piece of software can and can't do.

Exactly, friend Sitzkrieg. That's why most intelligent UI designers have learned over the years that it's a bit cleverer to allow the user the option to configure the interface and controls to his\her own liking rather than force them to eat crow. Nothing against BFC, but I think what they really need is for a good UI person to come on board. They've certainly got the historical accuracy and gameplay factors nailed down tight, but...

ianc

[Battlefront.com]

Ianc, I take pretty strong offence to the notion that we don't know what we are doing when it comes to interface. In fact, I would say that is one of CM's strongest features. The game is universally regarded as being easy to use, easy to learn, and easy to control the ungodly amount of stuff the game has to offer. If you think this all happened by accident, well... then I guess most games get it accidentally wrong

We do not have custom control options because we didn't want to spend the time programming such a feature. Would it be good to have? Sure. But I still don't think it would be worth cutting out some game features in order to accomodate it. The vast majority of people have no problem with the camera controls, either in CMBO or in CMBB. There is no way to make everybody happy, but as long as the majority are we can not ask for better.

Oh, and for anybody of you who are foolish enough to think that a customizable UI feature would solve all the problems... total bupkis What then happens is people bitch and moan about why this or that part of the game isn't able to be customized like the other stuff.

Hello... my name is Steve. I make games for a living. (everybody say "hi Steve!)". No matter what I do, or how carefully I listen to people, someone is always waiting in line to bitch at me. Whooops... sorry, I thought I was in my 12 step meeting of GDA (Game Developers Anonymous)

In all seriousness, this is really water off a duck's back. We have never, and will never, make all the people completely happy all the time. If I thought I could, I'm sure I would have put a bullet in my head out of sheer disapointment.

Oh... and no, we aren't going to change the camera behavior.

Steve

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Hi Steve!

[AnonymousOxide]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Ianc, I take pretty strong offence to the notion that we don't know what we are doing when it comes to interface. In fact, I would say that is one of CM's strongest features. The game is universally regarded as being easy to use, easy to learn, and easy to control the ungodly amount of stuff the game has to offer. If you think this all happened by accident, well... then I guess most games get it accidentally wrong

We do not have custom control options because we didn't want to spend the time programming such a feature. Would it be good to have? Sure. But I still don't think it would be worth cutting out some game features in order to accomodate it. The vast majority of people have no problem with the camera controls, either in CMBO or in CMBB. There is no way to make everybody happy, but as long as the majority are we can not ask for better.

Oh, and for anybody of you who are foolish enough to think that a customizable UI feature would solve all the problems... total bupkis What then happens is people bitch and moan about why this or that part of the game isn't able to be customized like the other stuff.

Hello... my name is Steve. I make games for a living. (everybody say "hi Steve!)". No matter what I do, or how carefully I listen to people, someone is always waiting in line to bitch at me. Whooops... sorry, I thought I was in my 12 step meeting of GDA (Game Developers Anonymous)

In all seriousness, this is really water off a duck's back. We have never, and will never, make all the people completely happy all the time. If I thought I could, I'm sure I would have put a bullet in my head out of sheer disapointment.

Oh... and no, we aren't going to change the camera behavior.

Steve

I didn't mean it to sound like I'm downing on your product. I know how much work you and your team put into it (which is tons), and it shows. BUT, certain things in the game can be a bit better like camera control.

Anyway, now that I know for sure that you're never changing it, I guess I have to deal with it.

Anyway, why didn't you lock this thread? Are you saying my raunchiness is sub-par? I'm offended.

[Lee_DiSantis]

I must say, people really do get way too testy in defense of the makers of this game...

Sorry if it pisses you ultra-BTS loyalists off, but people paid over 50 dollars for each one of these games. What does that mean, you ask? It means they pay the salaries of the workers of BTS. It also means they can critisize the game all they want. Thus, they don't need 5000 cyber-debate-club-members immediately coming to their defense... the money is all the defense they need.

Also (and I can't believe I'd ever say this about a smiley), the roll-eyes smiley is, in a way, condescending and lame. I don't think you should put it at the end of all of your posts (and you, in this case, is anyone who does that). Then again, you're entitled to do whatever you want. anyways, that's the end of my rant.

[ October 07, 2002, 03:06 AM: Message edited by: Lee_DiSantis ]

[Straif]

Originally posted by Lee_DiSantis:

...

Sorry if it pisses you ultra-BTS loyalists off, but people paid over 50 dollars for each one of these games. What does that mean, you ask? It means they pay the salaries of the workers of BTS. It also means they can critisize the game all they want. .

Umm... for $50 you can buy 5 movie tickets in USA (with popcorn), it means about 10 hours of medium-to-low level entertainment. I played with demo (free) more than 10 hours, I played with the game a lot of more.

The game is working perfectly, no crashing bugs no "logic" bugs, all promised features are working. I work for a large software company, I know how much pain is in debugging and beta-testing. There is no software problem with instalation (some CD's were bad, I heard).

Interface is very intuitive, most features accessible with right mouse click and control-letter keys.

I think people put a lot of heart and time into this code, just say thank you. They made money doing what they like - more power to them.

Just say thank you, enjoy your toys - send a PBEM setup to your friend. Dont spoil fun others.

Be well

Straif

[Mace]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

You know, I actually don't have any problems with the new commands, and I would hate it if BFC spent a bunch of time on this or that change, etc.

I agree with you too, Panzer Leader. I prefer the new camera controls to the old.

Mace

[Lou2000]

Though I have only used the new controlls in the demo (so far) ...

They work just fine, infact they are better than the CMBO controlls. ...

OK so they are new ....but IMHO they are also better. Just get used to them and enjoy the game ... or go back to your play-box-cube thingy and your gamepad !

Lou2000

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Lee_DiSantis:

I must say, people really do get way too testy in defense of the makers of this game...

Sorry if it pisses you ultra-BTS loyalists off, but people paid over 50 dollars for each one of these games. What does that mean, you ask? It means they pay the salaries of the workers of BTS. It also means they can critisize the game all they want. Thus, they don't need 5000 cyber-debate-club-members immediately coming to their defense... the money is all the defense they need.

Also (and I can't believe I'd ever say this about a smiley), the roll-eyes smiley is, in a way, condescending and lame. I don't think you should put it at the end of all of your posts (and you, in this case, is anyone who does that). Then again, you're entitled to do whatever you want. anyways, that's the end of my rant.

Hark a newbie actually thinks they're offering something new. Come for a visit in ye olde boards with papa Bastables and see what BTS hilarious answers were before.

Look a rare sighting of MadMatt as a slacker poster boy before fame and fortune changed him forever.

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=009843

Page 3 is the funny stuff but then Steve gets all serious on page 4.

[ October 07, 2002, 06:05 AM: Message edited by: Bastables ]

[Panzer76]

What is REALLY annoying is the camera control in the CDV version! Its much worse, its translated to german camera movement! And how come the game only gets translated to a few languages? What about Urdu? Norwegian? Arabic? We want our localized version!!!!

[kump]

Is that leg twitching again? I thought someone said that horse was dead? Forget the stick, get me the shotgun.

Steve, CMBB is brilliant and overall, the interface works great and meets your objectives well. Good job!

So it will "never be changed" in CMBB. Granted. But any UI design should get user feedback on how well its been accepted or liked. You try to please the majority. Appears to me that you were successful. But for CM2 and ongoing work, you always attempt to improve. And that is done using player feedback (I hope).

I don't like the new camera movement scheme and I explained it was due to the required attention to the mouse pointer. This is not just whining, its a feedback of why it doesn't work too well for myself. However, is it functional? Absolutely! Can I use it well? Absolutely! Do I love CMBB? Absolutely!

Take note and move on. I'm not going to post anymore on this particular issue. My own opinion on the subject has been posted enough times already and I will obligingly shut up.

And if I haven't posted it enough, CMBB is the hands down greatest tactical wargame accomplishment of the century. Be proud and please keep your policy of listening to player feedback, regardless how tiring the little whiners get.

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

There is no way to make everybody happy, but as long as the majority are we can not ask for better...

...No matter what I do, or how carefully I listen to people, someone is always waiting in line to bitch at me...

...We have never, and will never, make all the people completely happy all the time.

Steve

Steve, because of the high esteem I hold for you, and for BFC in general, I desire to make your life easier and less stressful.

Since it is patently true that you will never be able to make all the people happy all of the time, I think BFC should adopt a policy of concentrating on making me happy.

Once it is clear to everyone that the only changes and policies that will be acted upon are those that satisfy me, people will leave you alone. I may be deluged with emails and death-threats, but we both know how little that matters.

So, give the word and I will prepare you a list of things that I'd like to see done, or changes I'd like made. You can then simply ignore everyone else on the Forum.

There is no need to thank me, as having BFC cater to my every whim is thanks enough.

On the other hand, if you did want to thank me, even if you did not choose to listen to me as the sole voice of customer feedback, it would be really, really great.

Because then, you see, I could forever use the fact in conversations on this Board. For example: 'Well, I may not know that much about Tiger armour thickness in 1945, but I have been thanked by Steve Grammont, and what I think is...

Or: 'I'm sure you're very knowledgeable, young man, but had you received the thanks of Steve Grammont, as I have, you would know...'

And, while it occured to me that I preferred how mouse control of camera rotation worked in CMBO, and I find it slightly awkward in CMBB, I had long since resigned myself to learning to adapt to it.

Especially after Berli derided and mocked me.

[flamingknives]

FWIW, I think that the camera rotation maps pretty well.

I imagine the view I have as a board, pivoted at the bottom. If I want to turn it, I grab it at the top and push where I have more leverage. If I want to translate it, I grab the bottom [of the board] and push that, so it doesn't rotate.

As it gives the ability to lock to a moving unit and rotate the view, I like it.

[Panzer Leader]

Seanachai, old boy, would you mind ever so much mentioning to your friend Seve G. that how great a campaign layer would be.

With it, CM would be historically accurate, fun, and ultimately playable. Without it, well, I'd ruther not say.

[Madmatt]

Yes, this matter has been brought up before, but thats okay. Once more wont kill anyone and I am going to lock this up anyway in a moment.

Anytime their is change there is resistence to it. You don't like the new camera movement, fair enough. You however are in the vast minority on this issue and we are not going to change it back nor are we going to take the time to make a toggle to make it an option. NOTHING is ever as simple in code as you might think, and to do so is a waste of our time when there are far more important things to work on.

There you go, thats the final word.

Madmatt

[ October 07, 2002, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Madmatt ]