Panzer76 Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 Ok, played the scenarios a bit now. And, after playing Yelna as Russians (and getting a total victory) I cant see myself playing much as attacking russians in the final game, why? Cos it's just so much of an hassle! I mean, there are tons of inf, they panic as soon as they hear a shot, and it's just a pain in the butt to micro manage them all! Im aware that it's quite realistic, but I for one dont enjoy having to nurse every one of the zillion russian inf units where ever they go. So, what do you think? Do you enjoy playing as the russians in Yelna? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 I didn't have the patience to do a planned attack in this scenario this weekend and labour day. But overall, yes I think I will like that. I am more of a planner than a quick-reaction and improvisation guy. However, I think it is very easy to ruin this experience in the scoring and pricing system. From what I figured about the CMBB pricing and victory point system, the low-quality troops are expensive enough that there is no way to come out as a winner in knockout points, even if you get enough troops to start from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 Its a bit too early to get started on the points debate . . . Lets keep a few things in mind here: 1) Troops suppress alot easier in CMBB than they do in CMBO. Good rule of thumb is they behave one experience class lower for most intents and purposes (eg CMBB Regulars would be like CMBO Greens). 2) Yelina portrays a rather low quality bunch of soviet troops. Not outside of the norm for that time period. By the late war you could oftentimes see veteran soviet troops attacking green and conscript, unfit germans. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pathfinder Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 A trifle painful yes, but I still managed and enjoyed the draw I got as the Red Army in Yalina... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Some Dude Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 I agree. I will be enjoying this game enormously when it comes out but as the scale of game will increase over CMBO, micromanagement will become a hassle that people will notice more. I hope some kind of simple formation management AI is implemented in the next CM engine, along the lines of Airborne Assault but obviously not as complex. It would be good if you could give deployment orders to HQ units of platoons or companies similar to saying "company A, deply in this box area, front this way, V company formation, line platoon formation" and off it goes. If you wanted to adjust the position of a platoon then no problem, or if you wanted to detach the platoon no problem either. Darren [ September 03, 2002, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: BlackNemesis ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer76 Posted September 3, 2002 Author Share Posted September 3, 2002 Well, it bring maybe another question to mind, if, as it seems, the battles in CMBB is bigger (more units) that would mean more micro managment of the units, especially if they are prone to panic or whatever. I would say that the current command and game style doesn't suit the bigger battles much. Ofcource, it's a personla opinion as I know of several persons that enjoy big battles. But, I would also claim that MOST people that play the game doesn't prefer the big battles (2000+ pts in CMBO) but mostly play 1000-2000 pts battles. So the question is, is the Combat Mission series beginning to outgrow it's command structure? A bit early to ask maybe, since all we have is the demo, but hey, can't blame a guy for asking, now can u!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwazydog Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 I think that wwb has pointed out the main issue here...the Russians are concsripts. If you play with German conscripts you wont do much better Battles dont have to be larger in CMBB....at least the ones I have been playing Ive kept smaller as I havnt had much free time Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARRPEEGEE Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 Or, maybe it's this? growing pains on the part of the player? The combat system has been changed quite a bit, for the better IMHO. It's slower, and more deliberate planning and movement is called for. Trying tactics that worked for me in CMBO caused alot of headaches, but..taking a fresh look at it, and 'starting out from scratch', I adapted to the new system and I now have no troubles working with the russkies at all..In fact, I dig it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwazydog Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 Mch, thats a very good point too. If you are trying to play CMBB like CMBO you may be in for a few suprises. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer76 Posted September 3, 2002 Author Share Posted September 3, 2002 AS I said, I had a total vic, so dont come and tell me it's growing pains cos I dont know how to play the game, ok. I know how to get the victory, and yes, I dont use the CMBO tactis, but using the "new" tactics, micromanageing all the units is just not very fun. My point here is this: If the "typical" CMBB game is gonna be larger than CMBO, with *lots* of inf, then it will be more of an art of micromanage the little toddlers, and heaps of then, than actually coming up with a brilliant tactic. Ok, not maybe that bad, but you get my drift. Oh well, I guess I can just stay away from battles like that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GriffinCheng+ Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 Ah, interesting that old timers have to unlearn and relearn everything! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwazydog Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 No one was knocking you Panzer, so dont get your knickers in a knot. Mch just made an honest and plausable point that many others have found since playing the CMBB, and has every right to do so. As I said, battles can be any size. For me, the size of the battles i am playing now havnt changed a bit since my CMBO games, so its not a concern for me. I wouldnt be playing larger battles as I dont have the time, as Im sure many others dont either. Some love them though, so each to their own. Dan [ September 03, 2002, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer76 Posted September 3, 2002 Author Share Posted September 3, 2002 Originally posted by KwazyDog: No one was knocking you Panzer, so dont get your knickers in a knot. Mch just made an honest and plausable point that many others have found since playing the CMBB, and has every right to do so. Hehe, yeah, sorry. They can riducule me, my country or my mother, but dont say a word about my tactics!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwazydog Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 No worries Panzer I dont think youll be worried about the size thing in the final. A 1500 point battle in CMBB is pretty much at the same scale as a 1500 point battle in CMBO. Russian conscrpts are pretty cheap though, so you can buy bucket loads of them at the same price of a handful of regulars. Actually, I think that people are going to be excitied to get into ops in CMBB, too. Im playing one at the moment and it is very cool indeed. I find myself paying much more attention to losses and pulling back my troops so they dont get cut off and cut down. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breakthrough Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 Plenty of support from MGs and mortars, arty and tanks is the key from what has been offered so far. The craters provided in the tutorial suggest themselves to short rushes by one or two squads at a time supported by the rest of the platoons fire. Ditto Yelna. Its combined arms time! :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer76 Posted September 3, 2002 Author Share Posted September 3, 2002 Originally posted by KwazyDog: I dont think youll be worried about the size thing in the final. A 1500 point battle in CMBB is pretty much at the same scale as a 1500 point battle in CMBO. Russian conscrpts are pretty cheap though, so you can buy bucket loads of them at the same price of a handful of regulars. Actually, I think that people are going to be excitied to get into ops in CMBB, too. Im playing one at the moment and it is very cool indeed. I find myself paying much more attention to losses and pulling back my troops so they dont get cut off and cut down. Thanks, it's all I needed to hear! Well, seems I have to start playing ops! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 Originally posted by Panzer76: Ok, played the scenarios a bit now. And, after playing Yelna as Russians (and getting a total victory) I cant see myself playing much as attacking russians in the final game, why? Cos it's just so much of an hassle! I mean, there are tons of inf, they panic as soon as they hear a shot, and it's just a pain in the butt to micro manage them all! Im aware that it's quite realistic, but I for one dont enjoy having to nurse every one of the zillion russian inf units where ever they go. So, what do you think? Do you enjoy playing as the russians in Yelna?Hate to run this by you, but it isn't any better trying to cross open ground with the Germans. It isn't that the Russians suck, it's that you are trying to cross a wide open field covered by MGs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer76 Posted September 3, 2002 Author Share Posted September 3, 2002 Originally posted by Berlichtingen: Hate to run this by you, but it isn't any better trying to cross open ground with the Germans. It isn't that the Russians suck, it's that you are trying to cross a wide open field covered by MGsThats ok, I know. I just used the russians now as an example as we all have played that scenario, and therefore know what Im talking about when I mention the micro management. Im sure the Axis will "suck" equally much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 Originally posted by Panzer76: So the question is, is the Combat Mission series beginning to outgrow it's command structure?Not at all. CMBB allows very large battles, but it doesn't require them. Rest assured that there will be plenty of small scenarios made as well as small QBs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 Originally posted by Panzer76: My point here is this: If the "typical" CMBB game is gonna be larger than CMBO, with *lots* of inf, then it will be more of an art of micromanage the little toddlers, and heaps of then, than actually coming up with a brilliant tactic. Ok, not maybe that bad, but you get my drift.Two things... Larger battles are not more typical. For one thing, large scenarios take one hell of a lot longer to make than small battles. QBs are the same as CMBO in that you agree on the points ahead of time. Larger battles are possible (not required)... that is the only change. I don't find myself doing all that much micromanaging. If i have a company, I worry about squads. More than a company, and I move platoons without worrying about the individual squads. I actually find that managing a battalion sized force in CMBB is easier than CMBO. But CMBB has changed my entire play style. In CMBB, I never have more than 1/3 of my force in motion at any given time... therefore, on any given turn, I'm only worried about one company. The other companies are stationary to provide covering fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 Originally posted by Berlichtingen: It isn't that the Russians suck, it's that you are trying to cross a wide open field covered by MGsSmoke will be appreciated far greater in CMBB. Mace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 Originally posted by Mace: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Berlichtingen: It isn't that the Russians suck, it's that you are trying to cross a wide open field covered by MGsSmoke will be appreciated far greater in CMBB. Mace</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 the new move-to-contact order should make attacking easier.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 I think the original question was whether a battle with the same number of units will be more time-consuming to play. I think the answer is yes. Suression of infantry and morale of tanks slow things down. More commands need more time to choose and things like covered arcs require visiting single units. Area fire is more important which needs to be ordered. I don't think reducing the battle size is a solution for this. You need a given number of units to make the force robust enough so that the outcome of the battle isn't too random. And there is a basic threshold of both a requirement for enough stuff of the same kind (squads) and then some toys around it, otherwise you cannot bring full normal tactics into play. So, my guess is that the average battle will be longer in CMBB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
History Buff Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 A slow and boring way to get the russians forward is to sneak em forward. Get down and crawl boyz. Jerry didn't see me until I was ready this way, but damn it was a boring game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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