Weather effects in CMBB

[Nidan1]

Since the climate of European Russia was such a geat influence over military operations. I was wondering if CMBB weather conditions would be modeled to be more restricting then they were in CMBO? Although the Germans really were not prepared for the climate in 41-42, they did learn hard lessons and overcame climatic extremes in later years of the conflict. I hear the battle scope of CMBB will be larger than in CMBO, so I am thinking that weather will play a much more important role as to its effects on movement, unit morale, LOS etc. Does anyone know for sure?, Has a thread on this topic already started?

[Olle Petersson]

According to all of the previews and seak peeks, yes!

Cold (and heat?) will have influence on movement, jamming, fatigue, and whatever...

Cheers

Olle

[YankeeDog]

I'll be interested to see if the existence/lack of winter uniforms is modeled.

This goes beyond a scenario designer's concern. While the Germans' lack of preparedness for the winter of '41 can be partially modeled by using the new fitness ratings and making certain weapons and vehicles less likely to function (as I understand it, the MG34 was especially poor at dealing with the cold), some effects go beyond this.

The cold of the Russian winter is severe enough that an improperly equipped person will begin to develop serious injury from the cold (frostbite, etc.) well within the length of a typical CM battle. IOW, if you are out on the Russian Steppes in the dead of winter without your long johns and earmuffs, you begin to lose feeling in your exremities within minutes; within 30 minutes, the possibility of serious injury (loss of fingers and toes to frostbite, etc.) exists.

Imagine a Russsian attack scenario set in the winter of '41. German infantry with little or no winter equipment is called out of their shelters to fend off the counterattack. Those German infantry might start the battle at a good fitness and fatigue rating - they're just out of their (relatively) warm bunkers. Within 5-6 minutes of being out in the cold, they would begin to fatigue, even if they weren't moving or fighting at all. By the time they were out in the cold for 1/2 hr., you might even begin to see casualties to units that had not come under fire at all. This is especially true since, for CM purposes, cold weather induced casualties need not be a soldier who has developed severe hypothermia - even just frostbite to the fingers would make it virtually impossible to fire a rifle.

Of course, even properly equipped troops are not totally immune to cold-induced casualties in the kind of conditions you see in the Russian winter, but a good parka, boots and mittens will generally get you through half an hour or so out of doors without losing any of your fingers and toes.

'Twould be really cool if CMBB modeled 'cold caualties' to troops left exposed without proper equipment. My guess is that there would be a lot of complaining from some players about the strange 'mystery casualties' to their squads in the winter, though, so maybe it won't happen.

Maybe the best way for CMBB to handle this would be to simply have the fatigue status of unwinterized infantry in the severe cold gradually degrade no matter what they do. IOW, your German squads in the winter of '41 would gradually degrade to "Weary", or even "Exhausted" over the course of the battle, even if they just sit in a foxhole the whole time.

Cheers,

YD

[ August 01, 2002, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: YankeeDog ]

[MrSpkr]

I liked the new peasant lemonade stands. In the hot weather on the steppes, if your troops rest for a turn by a Peasant Lemonade Stand, they regain their fatigue levels much faster.

A very cool new feature.

Steve

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by MrSpkr:

I liked the new peasant lemonade stands. In the hot weather on the steppes, if your troops rest for a turn by a Peasant Lemonade Stand, they regain their fatigue levels much faster.

A very cool new feature.

Steve

Wow! For the winter, do the German troops have field kitchen units serving hot chocolate with peppermint schnapps to help them withstand the cold??

I suppose if these are included, then the Russkies deserve hot tea with vodka stations (believe or not, my Ukrainian granmother actually drank this concoction!!).

Capturing such a unit should be worth extra points, IMHO. Of course, there would be a good chance that your capturing units would stop obeying orders and just hang around sipping hot drinks for the rest of the battle. . .

[Nidan1]

I guess along with modeling adverse effects of extreme weather on troops, how would CMBB handle entire battalions of drunken Russian soldiers raping and pillaging in East Prussia and Berlin in 1945? A player on the Russian side would unexpectedly lose control of his units while they wandered aimlessly in circles in German towns for a few turns? The possibilities are endless.

[CMplayer]

I think the front line troops stayed under control for the most part. (at least as they first entered new areas) It was the follow ons, and supply troops who did the raping and pillaging.

[Doug Beman]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MrSpkr:

I liked the new peasant lemonade stands. In the hot weather on the steppes, if your troops rest for a turn by a Peasant Lemonade Stand, they regain their fatigue levels much faster.

A very cool new feature.

Steve

Wow! For the winter, do the German troops have field kitchen units serving hot chocolate with peppermint schnapps to help them withstand the cold??</font>

[zukkov]

while severe weather effects might be cool, and even realistic, you must remember the game is supposed to be somewhat of a fair fight. it would be rather boring to play a scenario in which all the russians have to do is wait several turns before they begin their assault so that weather casualties will accumulate, thus weakening the german defense. that is, unless that can be compensated for in other ways...

[SlowMotion]

If winter uniforms are modeled something like the way YankeeDog suggested (soldier fighting ability decreases during the battle because of cold), shouldn't the colour of winter uniforms also matter? If one side has white uniforms, they make those troops more difficult to spot, especially when not moving.

[Poobear]

Originally posted by Nidan1:

I guess along with modeling adverse effects of extreme weather on troops, how would CMBB handle entire battalions of drunken Russian soldiers raping and pillaging in East Prussia and Berlin in 1945? A player on the Russian side would unexpectedly lose control of his units while they wandered aimlessly in circles in German towns for a few turns? The possibilities are endless.

I guess they would have to model the Germans the same way for 1941 through 43.

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by zukkov:

while severe weather effects might be cool, and even realistic, you must remember the game is supposed to be somewhat of a fair fight. it would be rather boring to play a scenario in which all the russians have to do is wait several turns before they begin their assault so that weather casualties will accumulate, thus weakening the german defense. that is, unless that can be compensated for in other ways...

I think this would be relatively easy to compensate for - either by numbers, positioning, length of battle, or just giving the Germans waves of reinforcements (presumably fresh out of their toasty barracks). Keep in mind were talking about something that would only start to be a factor relatively late in most games.

True, it would make 60 turn long scenarios set in the winter of '41-'42 rather uninteresting to play - as you mentioned all the Russian player would have to do is sit and wait for cold to wear out the german troops, and then move in to mop up what's left.

But most CM scenarios are shorter than this anyway and as noted the effects could be compensated for in scenario design. Over the course of a more typical 30 turn CM battle, we'd be talking about a frostbite victim here and there in the very late turns of the game, as well as a gradual increase in the fatigue of the German soldiers, not the wholesale freezing of entire platoons.

In fact, I think modeling 'cold casualties' could create some very intersting scenarios - the german player is much more likely to be aggressive in the early going if he knows that he's going to start losing soldiers to frostbite eventually.

Also, the Germans were not totally without winter equipment '41-'42 - they just didn't have anywhere near enough. A little bit made it from Germany, and more was simply stolen from captured/dead Russian soldiers or civilians (I really want a "Winter Fritz" uniform mod with a German soldier in a ladies' fur coat!!) If you really want Winter-equipped German troops in November of '41, this isn't necessarily totally ahistorical, it was just uncommon.

The harder part would be for QBs. Ideally, I guess non-winter equipped and winter-equipped units should have different point costs for winter battles. This may be too much of a pain in the butt to figure out and code, though.

I also agree with Slowmotion on the 'Winter Camoflage" issue. In the Winter of '41-'42, anyway, this was also a major problem for the Germans. This could be partially fudged by removing any HQ stealth bonuses in scenario design, but an overall 'stealth penalty' would probably be best. We'll see if BFC has time to code yet another little extra tidbit in the game. . .

Cheers,

YD

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by SlowMotion:

... shouldn't the colour of winter uniforms also matter? If one side has white uniforms, they make those troops more difficult to spot, ...

I don't agree with this.

It would be way too scenario specific what camo is better. It would even differ in different locations on each map.

- White is better in open terrain with snow.

White camo can easily be done ad hoc with bed sheets and other stuff, if required.

- When moving in woods (spruce, as is the dominant tree in the taiga) it's often just as good, or even better, to use the regular jacket and have white or regular trousers to blend in with the green foliage and white/brown ground. In darkness it might be even more favourable to wear dark clothes.

- In towns and cities just about anything goes, but dark is usually better.

Cheers

Olle

[Schoerner]

When the fight starts, you're full-pumped with adrenaline.

You don't feel the cold anymore.

[SlowMotion]

Olle Petterson:

>I don't agree with this.

>It would be way too scenario specific what camo is better. It would even differ in different locations on each map.

Sure the camo effect is different in different parts of the map. But when there is snow, the white uniform did help. Sometimes a lot. Why would they still be used today if it didn't make real difference?

[Zitadelle]

Originally posted by Schoerner:

When the fight starts, you're full-pumped with adrenaline.

You don't feel the cold anymore.

And what is your documented proof of this event???

History abounds with examples of the impact of weather and climate on fighting ability. Without taxing half a brain cell, I can easily think of a dozen campaigns/wars where the overall effectiveness of the combatants was dramatically affected by weather conditions- especially the cold (and leaving out rain, fog, snow, extreme heat, etc....).

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Schoerner:

When the fight starts, you're full-pumped with adrenaline.

You don't feel the cold anymore.

Have you ever been out in 30-degree below zero weather? I have. A lot. The adrenaline effect lasts about 5 minutes. Besides, even if you don't 'feel it', you still get the frost bite. I've read stories of soldiers, both Russian and German, discovering that their hands were completely frozen when they went to pull the trigger because they hadn't been paying attention to the cold and left their hand out of the mitten - they'd been paying attention to be bullets and shrapnel.

Adrenaline and fear don't make you warmer, they just make you forget the cold for a few minutes. The results can be disasterous. I was an avid skiier growing up and even with modern cold-weather gear, I have gotten frostbite a couple of times. The reason why I got the frostbite is that I was feeling 'pumped up' about being the first one to ski down some treacherous slope and so ignored the warning signs. I've lost all feeling in my feet before (fortunately, only temporarily). On skis, this doesn't effect you so much, but the moment you get out of the bindings, you can barely walk, even with the extra support of the ski boots. And this was after maybe 30-45 minutes outdoors.

I can only begin to imagine what those German soldiers went thorough in the winter of '41-'42 wearing light field jackets in while fighting in sub-zero weather. I can assure you, though, that adrenaline did not keep them warm.

[Schoerner]

I didn't say that wheather and climate have no effect on the fight in general. Ofcourse all the well known restrictions and limitations are still there, but a part of the discussion was about the influence of the cold on the morale of troops exposed to it during fight.

And this has only minimum influence.

I can't name you a book, but this is what my grandfather told me (even around -40Celsius you don't feel the cold any more during a fight) and it is also my experience of fighting a "Mensur" (a fight between german students with weapons called "Schläger" (similar to a light but very sharp sword).

[Schoerner]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

The adrenaline effect lasts about 5 minutes. Besides, even if you don't 'feel it', you still get the frost bite. I've read stories of soldiers, both Russian and German, discovering that their hands were completely frozen when they went to pull the trigger because they hadn't been paying attention to the cold and left their hand out of the mitten - they'd been paying attention to be bullets and shrapnel.

Adrenaline and fear don't make you warmer, they just make you forget the cold for a few minutes.

The effect of adrenaline can last much longer than a few minutes and ofcourse it makes you warmer, due to better blood-circulation and also the immune-suppression-effect is drastically enhanced. A soldier in action can lay hours in the snow around zero without getting a serious cold.

Ofcourse the mentale attitude makes a great difference, but if you have the right attitude (and the germans had it), the body is capable to deal with these circumstances.

[Zitadelle]

Originally posted by Schoerner:

I didn't say that wheather and climate have no effect on the fight in general. Ofcourse all the well known restrictions and limitations are still there, but a part of the discussion was about the influence of the cold on the morale of troops exposed to it during fight.

And this has only minimum influence.

....

[Edited to save BFC diskspace.]

Alright, we'll discuss "the influence of the cold on the morale of troops exposed to it during [a] fight."

Troop morale is heavily influenced by weather conditions- particularly miserable conditions. Whether (no pun intended) it is hot, cold, wet, muddy, or many other variants, conditions will affect troop morale.

Read about the impact winter conditions had on the German troops in Stalingrad. Of course, you can argue that was due to a lack of supply. So, here are several other examples:

For the Russian Front two come quickly to mind- the Korsun Pocket and the ill-lead final defense by "Field Marshall" Schoerner (both in the Kurland pocket and in the final defense of the Reich).

Read about the affect of winter conditions on the morale of the US Marine 2nd Division in 1950 (Korean War). Or, the Russians during the Winter War in 1940 (when they were not equipped for winter fighting). Another example would be the retreat of Napoleon's army from Russia and the defense of the only river crossing at Deresinia (sp?). The Napoleonic Wars have several other examples, along with a multitude of other European Wars (30 Years, Fall of Rome, Roman Conquests, etc...).

Back to the United States, there are examples during the War of Independence and the various wars against the Native American Indians (both Indians and the US Army).

And, I am only giving a few brief examples of the cold. We could also discuss other weather conditions and its impact on morale for: desert conditions, rain, monsoons, deep snow, etc....

[Zitadelle]

Originally posted by Schoerner:

Biologically incorrect. A rise in adernaline actually decreases the immune-suppression-effect. Adernaline is a very strong chemical, and over time will break down cells.

[Schoerner]

You're talking about the influence of the longer exposion to the cold over several battles, but this isn't modelled by CM.

CM gives you at the beginning of each battle 100% fully equipped and healthy troops.

If a typical CM 20-30 minutes battle starts, then there wasn't in reality that big effect on the morale of 100% complete and fresh infantry you all are talking about.

The influence on the morale of a 20 minutes fight itself is MUCH higher than the influence of the cold and therefore it is good that it isn't modeled that strong you are talking about.

If you have to fight again and again, it's another point - but not part of CM.

[ August 01, 2002, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Schoerner ]

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Schoerner:

The effect of adrenaline can last much longer than a few minutes and ofcourse it makes you warmer, due to better blood-circulation and also the immune-suppression-effect is drastically enhanced. A soldier in action can lay hours in the snow around zero without getting a serious cold.

Ofcourse the mentale attitude makes a great difference, but if you have the right attitude (and the germans had it), the body is capable to deal with these circumstances.

[Schoerner]

Originally posted by Zitadelle:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Schoerner:

Biologically incorrect. A rise in adernaline actually decreases the immune-suppression-effect. Adernaline is a very strong chemical, and over time will break down cells.</font>

Thanks for the correction. Ofcourse I meant the opposite: immune-suppression is drastically reduced (viruses and bacteria are much faster reduced/eliminated).

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SlowMotion:

... shouldn't the colour of winter uniforms also matter? If one side has white uniforms, they make those troops more difficult to spot, ...

- White is better in open terrain with snow.

White camo can easily be done ad hoc with bed sheets and other stuff, if required.

</font>