Is this a "GAMEY" use of a FT?

[Auggy]

Is it OK to setup a "Wall of Fire" on defense w/ 5-6 ft's? Just a barrier to keep them from coming a certain way and to protect my defenses by using smoke ro knock out los?

[Lars]

Most people would say yes.

Not me, but most people.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Lars:

Most people would say yes.

Not me, but most people.

By strict definition - did they do stuff like this in real life - the answer is yes, this is gamey, since man-packed flamethrowers were not generally employed in batteries.

[Silvio Manuel]

Your opponent may find it to be gamey but...

Isn't 5-6 infantry FT teams an AMAZING arty target? Its not like they're going to get away, unless you have transport for them...and the transports might get KO'd too. If I were playing you, I would target that area the second I saw 6 different fires started in a small area. Heh, "its only gamey if it works," they say.

[Louie the Toad]

When it comes to FTs I always say:

"Smoke em if ya got em"

Toadsted.

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lars:

Most people would say yes.

Not me, but most people.

By strict definition - did they do stuff like this in real life - the answer is yes, this is gamey, since man-packed flamethrowers were not generally employed in batteries.</font>

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Did I mention ground conditions are very dry?

[CMplayer]

It's definitely gamey by the strict definition of gamey, since in RL that defensive wall of fire would be much more unpredictable than the result you know you will get in the game.

But some opponents don't mind 'gamey' so it could be okay in a game with them.

[MarkEzra]

Fire on the battlefield was a danger to both sides. What you are suggesting is that troops would set fires in front of there postions to mask them. Would they also have fire trucks to control the blaze as it burns through their lines? It's gamey, alright

[Commander]

It seems there are two types of CM players. You have the players who define anything that didn't happen for real in WWII as "gamey" and then you have the players who do the non-historical things. I guess the key is to find opponents who agree with your philosophy and your style of play. There are plenty of both!

[CombinedArms]

If you've got 5-6 FTs on defense, my suggestion would be to use them as ambush weapons rather than to create an obstructive wall of fire, for a couple of reasons:

1. If you're targeting enemy units rather than merely creating a barricade, then it avoids accusations of being gamey. No one can blame you for firing at enemy units.

2. It's also more effective. You kill or break enemy units without broadcasting your own position until you fire-- and thus becoming an arty target yourself. You also save precious ammo (FT teams never have much.) And in the end, you may also create your barricade, too.

So, hide the FTs spread out in good cover where the enemy must pass and where they can hit approaching enemies at close range (preferably in some burnable target area) and wait for them to come to you. It helps to have a covered line of retreat planned out for the FTs.

[ May 15, 2002, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[NightGaunt]

its dependent on the situation:

example:

if you are going to smoke the only wood square in the area to deny him the use of its cover, not gamey.

if you are trying to completely block a path so he cannot attack from that direction, its gamey.

the difference: 1 is not taking advantage of the GAME ENGINE "flaws" or loophole.

the 2nd one is for all the reasons listed in above posts IE:

controlled fire no spreading

inability to move thru the fire.

etc.

[Kurtz]

Look at those gamey French!

How Stuff Works

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by Kurtz:

Look at those gamey French!

How Stuff Works

Bastards.

[Mr. Johnson--]

What will be defined as gamey next? Taking the long way around though the desert? Damn 7th corps!

[Tanaka]

Originally posted by Kurtz:

...

Look at those gamey French!

How smart...clap, clap, clap... I’m amazed, why don’t write a book about it ?

1-Fires in real live spread.

2-Fires in real live run out of “fuel”.

3-Fires in real live can be put off.

4-Troops in real live don’t have 30 to 60 min to “get that flag”.

What are you implying ?

You enjoy a game in likes of this one:

Guy with 6 FT… the other with a full Bn.

Guy of FT “mounts” a firewall around the flag with his troops inside.

Guy with the Bn spends some time figuring out what is really happening.

Guy with the Bn loses the game.

Isn’t that a complete disrespect for your adversary?

Not only making him lose his time but also for putting up a game that he doesn’t have a chance of wining?

Would you like to spend 3 weeks playing a pbem only to find out your fighting a fire wall and you can’t do anything about it?

You will say:

“No, not to me, I wouldn’t let him put the fire wall up and he doesn’t have time to do it”

What if he buys 6 FT carriers ? Does he have time now?

You, as a defender, can very easily put a fire zone in a flag you can’t/don’t want defend… now you don’t need to defend it, but neither your adversary can get it. Nice, isn’t it?… not :mad:

PS- Must say I only once found an adversary doing firewalls at one of my games… but as you can probably guess I wasn’t particularly happy about it

[dalem]

Sure it's gamey as all hell, but some of us don't mind playing against opponents who dig that sort of thing. I wouldn't want to face it every match, but FTs carry their own penalties and risks, as mentioned.

If it was something that absolutely sealed a game against me I'd just surrender and start a new one with you - no big whup. The question then becomes "Is it boring to play against someone who will surrender when the battle becomes a lock against him Winning or Drawing?"

-dale

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Mr. Johnson--:

What will be defined as gamey next? Taking the long way around though the desert? Damn 7th corps!

This statement implies that it's silly to call the 'wall of fire' tactic in CM gamey. But it's not. Denying access to a VL with fire in CM is gamey, period. This isn't a case of my interpretation is as good as yours. It's a case of my interpretation is the RIGHT answer to the question. So there. Puh.

[NightGaunt]

nice picture kurtz, but what about an hour later when the fire burns out?

that fire also looks like it is moving, at least the wind is fanning it on, so it will spread.

both those things won't happen in CM because the engine doesn't re create that.

therefore it is gamey.

irl the germans would have waited for the fire to burn out and then attacked if that is what they wanted to do.

[Kurtz]

Ha! None of you noticed that it was a picture from World War 1!!!

French soldiers make a gas and flame attack on German trenches in Flanders, Belgium, during WWI.

[Andreas]

According to the US Army 'Handbook of the Red Army' (or somefnik), FT companies were attached to Breakthrough Regiments in assaults on fortified positions. According to Zaloga, one FT company would have 120 FTs. Spread over two breakthrough battalions attacking on a 1,100 yard frontage, with one FT Platoon (40 FT) in the regimental assault group. Personally, I think Zaloga has his figures wrong or I am seriously misunderstanding somefink. Anyone care to comment?

[Bruno Weiss]

A HUNDRED AND TWENTY FT'S!!!

Now that's gamey.

[NightGaunt]

actually, i'm sure many people, me included, noticed the helmets/uniforms and thought it was too obvious to even mention that the pic was WWI, it also wasn't important to the discussion, but thanks for trying to be a smart-a@@ anyway

[ May 16, 2002, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: NightGaunt ]

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by Tanaka:

Guy with 6 FT… the other with a full Bn.

Guy of FT “mounts” a firewall around the flag with his troops inside.

Guy with the Bn spends some time figuring out what is really happening.

Guy with the Bn loses the game.

Wouldn't it be;

Guy with 6 FT… the other with a full Bn.

Guy of FT “mounts” a firewall around the flag with his troops inside.

Guy with the Bn drops lots of arty onto the flag zone.

6 FT teams die.

Guy with the Bn wins!

Seriously; There's no way setting fire on unoccupied ground will win a battle on it's own, unless there are one or two very strategic choke-points that the opponent must pass to get near the flags and/or to the other half of the map.

To make sure a flag stays out of enemy control it takes a ring of fire with a radius of at least two ground squares. That's at least twelve individual fires that needs to get started.

Usually there are more than one flag.

Taking all flags out of play makes victory a matter of casualties...

Cheers

Olle

[Tanaka]

Olle Petersson,

Sorry , but I don’t have time for ifs and what if and the sort…

That was an extreme situation example so the point was well understood, obviously it didn’t work for some…

Next time read the post fully; my English is not that good, but for skilful minds, half word is enough :cool:

So in short and in a less confusing way here are again my thoughts;

Facts

Due to engine short comes and compromises the following happens:

1-Fires never end

2-Fires don’t spread

3-Objectives are not flexible; they can’t change once the battle starts…

After saying this, in my opinion, using fires intensively, and most specially in firewall functions is not polite or it isn’t the gentlemen expected behavior in a pbem or tcpip CM game.

--------------WARNING-----------------

The intended post ends here, after this, read at your own risk; its lecture is only advised to open minded types

Obviously some man “want to be” need a victory above all and desperately, so ,all tactics are valid… :eek:

They play with infantry recon by death; mix country forces; mix army branches; soft AA vehicles; jeep ruches (mg and at); firewalls, AFV lines… in short a “gamey” extravaganza!

These guys are not playing for enjoyment, they are in a nervous state where victory above all is what counts… to them

My advice regarding playing with these gentlemen is:

1- Wait for them to grow up.

2- Write a 3 or 4 e-mails congratulating them for something, a victory, their name, the cat, the dog, their simple existence or something else.

Normally after four quick e-mail “victory” parades in a row they feel great and play in a more decent way.

3-Don’t play them… my final and maybe the only true advice

[ May 17, 2002, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: Tanaka ]