Does anyone like to use British tanks?

[DaveN]

I've tried several scenarios using just British tanks and didn't fair too well at all..and whats up with the one that has the 290mm gun that only shoots 200 yards?..after finding out that this POS only had a 200 yard range I just sent it after German infantry out of sight of their tanks....I figured the blast effect of this gun would equal a 300mm rocket but it really didn't and caused little damage to the troops..they just walked on over and knocked it out..

[Equinox]

Its for smashing through the sides of pillboxes, IIRC. It used a HESH round in real life, but in the game to get the desired effect on pillboxes it is classified as a hollow charge in-game. So as far as the game is concerned, its a giant Panzershreck flying at enemy troops.

Its not exactly a QB weapon, and the only use in a scenario would be against a very deep series of fortifications where the rear of the first line was protected by emplacements farther back. Using the AVRE you could push into one spot and take out pillboxes in the first line from the side, as opposed to a risky shot from the front or rear (if its protected)

Someone else can tell you more about its RL use and specs.

[ParaBellum]

Actually british tanks are not that bad. Take a Firefly with the 17pdr gun for example. You need something to kill Panthers and Tigers? Here it is.

Or need some armour? Try a Churchill VII. No more worries about 75mm Pak.

Or some fast Daimler armoured cars with their 40mm gun with high ROF, very handy when dealing with Pz IVs!

The tank you you mention is the Churchill AVRE. IIRC it was designed to destroy bunkers with its hollow charge shells.

The low muzzle velocity is because it's more like a giant PIAT than a tank gun.

A quick search with "AVRE" should give you more details on that one.

[ February 18, 2002, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: ParaBellum ]

[Soddball]

I'd pick British over American quite often. Cromwells are great for high speed attacks and arent' really any more vulnerable than Shermans. 95mm Cromwells are great for taking on infantry. Fireflies cook anything the Germans can field. What more can you ask for?

[flamingknives]

What? British armour is great! The U.S. forces don't have anything that comes close to the 17 pdr until nearly the end of 1944.

Most Churchills will ignore 75mm Axis AT guns from the front and can carry 95mm guns or crocadile flamethrowers, both of which send Axis infantry heading for the hills. The Kangeroos are the best APCs in the game and the Daimler is a HT killer

The ARVE (Assault Vehicle Royal Engineers) was designed to take down fortification, hence the main gun, which is a 290mm petard mortar and earned the nickname of 'Flying dustbin' from allied troops. They also carried other equipment, such as matting roadways for laying paths across soft sand, fascines for bridging small ditches and bridges for crossing bigger ditches, rivers and sea walls, none of which are included in CMBO.

[Bruno Weiss]

I find the Cromwell's fairly potent. Their fast, and pack a pretty good punch. Particularly the VIII, 95mm HE. It will ruin just about any German infantry's day.

[ February 18, 2002, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[The Commissar]

British tanks represent the best Allied armor in the game because of two tanks, IMO.

The Church VIII is the 'Allied Tiger'. It takes on absolutely everything and can go toe to toe with the big cats no sweat. Anything less is just spat at and tossed to the side as a burning wreck.

The Cromwells are both light and powerful. In fact, they represent the armor of choise for some of the better ladder players. They can suppress infantry and take out all sort of armor with equal efficiency.

While the Brits have other note worthy AFV's, in CM they are much too pricy for my tastes. The two above however offer the best in performance for the minimum in price. A perfect combination in a QB!

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by The Commissar:

The Church VIII is the 'Allied Tiger'. It takes on absolutely everything and can go toe to toe with the big cats no sweat. Anything less is just spat at and tossed to the side as a burning wreck.

You forgot the Big If....IF you can manage to hit the targeted tank w/ the VIII's limited hollow charge ammo.

[The Commissar]

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

You forgot the Big If....IF you can manage to hit the targeted tank w/ the VIII's limited hollow charge ammo.

To tell the truth, I never had a problem with that. Smaller tanks go up even with just HE. When fighting Big Cats, I can usually afford to have 2 to 1 odds against them thanks to the Church's cheapness, increasing chances of a hit.

[Redwolf]

CMBO will only fire HC after a first range-finding shot of HE. So the real disadvantage is that a first shot that surprisingly hits may not have the desired effect. Shots on big cats may be an exception. I also get a lot of tanks with just 1 HC round.

I belong to the Cromwell fans, but fighting real tanks with the 95mm variant means closing in like with a PIAT. Since they are slightly vulnerable to the 50mm AT gun which you find in many laddergame backyards and on Pumas, I think that the 95mm Cromwell is somewhat overrated by most players. They are for cover-jumping players. Churchills which are so powerful and bigassy that they can't join the action and see the game lost without really participiating are common as well.

Having said that, it is my impression that the accuracy that CMBO gives to the 95mm is still too high. A report quoted in the last 95mm penetration debate said that the hit probabilty is only 1/6th of the 6-pounder AP shot, IIRC at 1000 yards.

I guess it would be a good idea to give crews of close-support tanks and SP artillery a hit probablity penality for moving targets.

[Warmaker]

Well, since I play Axis all the time if I get a choice in facing an Allied armor nationality, it'd be the U.S. The British have the Fireflies with the excellent 17-pdr, which poses problems for my aging Tigers and at times if I'm being stupid, my Panthers.

Just be aware that in the first months of CMBO the Fireflies don't have much in the way of HE ammo loadouts!

My quick and dirty 17-pdr and 76mm comparison:

17-pdrs have a slightly better blast value.

17-pdrs have a higher velocity over U.S. 76mm = better accuracy at extended ranges.

Also, 17-pdrs are in the game from the start compared to the U.S. 90mm which can be found on their AA gun, M36 Jackson, and Pershings. Those weapon platforms however take months to show up in the selection screens.

If there's one bad thing about having a Firefly is this: When the Axis player knows he's facing off against a Commonwealth opponent, Fireflies are at the top of the list on things to kill since they pose a threat to even the heaviest armor.

Fireflies are great, but as a crewmember, probably not conducive to one's personal health

[Caesar]

How can you go past a Churchill flame thrower - I have set whole towns ablaze with these. You get good flame range, loads of ammo and a 75 to boot all with decent armour. A tad pricey but still a cool toy. Back it up with a couple of 17 pounder armed tanks or tank destroyers to deal with those pesky axis tanks and you're laughing.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Warmaker:

Just be aware that in the first months of CMBO the Fireflies don't have much in the way of HE ammo loadouts!

zero in fact. But they are cheaper, I kinda prefer the early version in a game that is big enough to allow the saving to add up to buy a seperate HE shooter.

My quick and dirty 17-pdr and 76mm comparison:

17-pdrs have a slightly better blast value.

17-pdrs have a higher velocity over U.S. 76mm = better accuracy at extended ranges.

The US 76mm has an additional penetration penality over the normal value that would result out of caliber and muzzle speed, modeling the tendency of the projectile to break up. It just plain sucks.

Fireflies are great, but as a crewmember, probably not conducive to one's personal health

Sounds perfectly historical.

As for the Crocodile, it is a very big risk to invest so many points into one single vehicle, no matter how tough it is. And that is especially against the infantry-heavy players who can kill almost any tank anytime if it doesn't have enough backup (for which you don't have money), or if they can't kill it detract it, corner it, blind it or whatever it takes. Also, in realistic scenarios you usually have attack/defense, in which case you have mines. Mines are especially bad for Churchill owners since they have to use the roads to get a minimum of mobility.

[flamingknives]

When I'm playing Axis, I prefer using 75mm AT guns, as these are plenty big enough to knock out almost any allied tank and much cheaper than the 88s.

Imagine my consternation when playing a QB against the AI, my force having only a few shreks and no AT bigger than 75mm, and FIVE Churchill VII (IIRC, the ones with the 95mm gun and good armour) roll over the nearest hill. It was a good thing that AI armour is stupid and allowed me to get some flank shots from my emplaced guns and PzIVs.

A contemporary U.S. Army force I would have lauged at and butchered.

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by redwolf:

I agree with that. I once had a Hellcat face off against a Tiger I at about 250m (both regulars IIRC). They spotted each other right away, so I didn't get any free shots in. The Hellcat pinged about 8 shots off the hull and turret to no avail, before getting the killing shot. Even more amazing was that the Tiger MISSED every shot during that span!

[ February 19, 2002, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]

[flamingknives]

That's one thing about CM, the 88 Flak (also the main gun on the Tiger I) was supposed to be far more accurate than it seems to be in the game.

British tankers in the desert really hated the 88 dual purpose because it could hit and knock then out at over 1000 metres. In game it takes almost all of my AP to take down one tank in the open at that range (with a regular or veteran crew)

I think this point has been made before, but it seemed relevant in context.

The only good thing about the US 76 is that it's cheap, so you can afford to have whole platoons of 76 armed Shermans or M10s

[K_Tiger]

The Tigers accuracy is really worse..if i play against the AI, i try to drive those behemoths so near as i can onto the ennemy tanks...like in real live...

On the other hand, last nigth i made my own scenario. Placed one of my Panthers in a hull down position, on the other side, a Hellcat drived with full speed downhill turned his turret (broadsited) to my Panther (500yards away) and killed my Tank with one shoot...was a regular crew i forget to say..

No modern high-tech laserguided Tank couldn do this...and this wasnt the first time i saw such über-move-and-shoot thingy...

[Kingfish]

Another advantage in using Brit tanks: The Wolverine TDs get Tungsten rounds a few months earlier than it's American counterpart, the M-10.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by K_Tiger:

The Tigers accuracy is really worse..if i play against the AI, i try to drive those behemoths so near as i can onto the ennemy tanks...like in real live...

On the other hand, last nigth i made my own scenario. Placed one of my Panthers in a hull down position, on the other side, a Hellcat drived with full speed downhill turned his turret (broadsited) to my Panther (500yards away) and killed my Tank with one shoot...was a regular crew i forget to say..

No modern high-tech laserguided Tank couldn do this...and this wasnt the first time i saw such über-move-and-shoot thingy...

I too Have complained LONG and HARD about the accuracy of firing on the FAST move.... the way that gyrostablizing mechanism is modeled is truly a WONDER to behold

The US Hellcat and the Greyhound (37 mm) can shoot and scoot with the best of them and can SHOOT while scooting at great speed and with an high degree of accuracy that is truly mind boggling.

AND I agree the long range accuracy of the 88 mm could be somewhat enhanced.

(several LONG threads have addressed the long range accuracy and shooting on the fast move issues trust me )

however all these things have been brought up before and we are stuck with it the way it is for now.....

-tom w

[ February 19, 2002, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by redwolf:

I agree with that. I once had a Hellcat face off against a Tiger I at about 250m (both regulars IIRC). They spotted each other right away, so I didn't get any free shots in. The Hellcat pinged about 8 shots off the hull and turret to no avail, before getting the killing shot. Even more amazing was that the Tiger MISSED every shot during that span!</font>

So let me get this straight, a Tiger with a REG crew at 250 m missed HOW Many shots (?) while a Hellcat Bravely pumped off 8 (!) rounds at 250 m???

Stories like this can only be regarded as EXCEPTIONALY bad luck for the Tiger, and good fortune for the hellcat as it would only take ONE 88mm round to KO that Hellcat into oblivion.

Was the Hellcat shooting while moving FAST? That might "sort of" explain it.

-tom w

[ February 19, 2002, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[K_Tiger]

Tom:

i know, i follow those threads a long time...but sometimes it brougth out...and i couldn hold on my self... ) especialy, if one of those poor, cheap ugly green aehem...Tanks...killed in such a manner..one of my handcrafted, handpainted, über-beautifulls...

[IronChef4]

I love to use the Churchill AVRE for the pure novelty of it. There's nothing like hearing a giant BOOM and then seeing the ground shake violently as GIANT shell arcs across the sky and rams into a squad of SS. It's great. . .you'll have to excuse me. . .I'm getting emotional. . .talk amongst yourselves. . .I'll give you a topic. . .the peanut is neither a pea nor a nut. . .discuss

[Bruno Weiss]

the peanut is neither a pea nor a nut. . .discuss

Now what is that sposed to mean? Ain't it a relative of the pea. Who invented the thing anyway? Weren't it George Washington Carver or something. He was neither George Washington, nor was he a carver. There, take that!

[ February 19, 2002, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Ligur]

Today, I had a single Marder II knock out 4 of my Cromwell VIIs on TCP/IP. How ya guys like that? Go Brits go?

I had a bunch of three Cromwells attempting to flank when Tigers were spotted to my far left, and I sent the first one a bit ahead of the others. BANG, it didn't have any time to react. A Marder had appeared on my path from a copse of trees! But ha! It was sitting in the open now! My two other Cromwells had the Marder in plain sight and were behind some scattered trees of their own to its right. The Marder had its gun pointing in the wrong directio to boot! I started rolling my Cromwells out of a depression, figuring the fast turrest would take out the hapless Marder from 150 meters pretty fast. BUT OH NO! That was not to be! Even while having the Marder in plain sight, the Cromwells didn't even swivel their turrets, but instead started trundling past the Marder, now at 130 meters, with their flanks exposed. Why did they do that? I will never know. Why didn't they even TRY to shoot at the Marder when they were stational during the first 20 seconds of the round or while moving, even? A mystery wrapped inside tungsten!

The Marder, slowly turning, took out both Cromwells while they paraded along. Terrible.

Then the very same Marder II started cruising towards my main force, and got a side shot at one more Cromwell, now my far right flank. BOOM.

Then a big angry Churchill came, shook off 3 rounds on the frontal armor, and after 4 tries finally hit the Marder causing a nice exlosion.

But I still can't figure out why my Cromwells refused to answer the fire.

To make this tank ecounter with Brits vs Germans even more fruity, let me tell you about the other flank;

On my left flank, 3 Wolwerine TD's and one Stuart dropped 3 Tigers while the Marder II catastrophe was unveiled, so that pretty much made it even. The Stuart speeded at full throttle towards the Tigers and fired once from 130 meters at the first one, hitting a structural weakness on the front and knocking it out. While the last two Tigers disposed of the Stuart trying to drive past them, I got 3 Wolwerines in position. The next round I killed the remaining two Tigers in a head-on face-off, only suffering one gun hit while the Tigers were knocked out by tungsten rounds. Range was about 300 meters.

A very freaky fight in a foggy and forested area. Again, this goes to show anything can and will happen when tanks are about. But... do any of you find the events above even slightly... odd?

[IronChef4]

it seems odd that your stuart was able to knock out a tiger FROM THE FRONT!!!