Bah....

[tom5172]

Has anyone had used the 37mm gun? All I keep asking myself is; "were the Germans stupid?". That thing's a pea-shooter!!!!!

[Schrullenhaft]

It's a 'peashooter' compared to the front hull of a T34 or KV. For many other AFVs of the day it was a potent weapon (speaking of its AT capabilities).

[Michael Dorosh]

Has anyone ever used a rotary phone? You know, with the stupid dial on it that you have to wait forever to finish dialing when you use the number 9 or 0? What the hell were people thinking? Why didn't they just invent a push button cel phone? Those guys were pretty stupid to spend all that money on land lines when they could have just invented a cel phone.

[Wallybob]

Oh, yeah. The 37mm is such a weenie weapon as compared to...say...the Boys Anti-Tank Rifle? And it never could stop the invincible Bren Carrier.

The weapons were developed to face the then most likely threat, and armor just wasn't huge.

[ParaBellum]

Oh, I don't think the 3,7cm sucks that bad. I've already knocked out several T-34s with them. They penetrate the flanks and rear without problems and can penetrate the turret from the front if the distance isn't too great.

They won't blow the T-34s up in a big explosion, but after a few holes in their tank the crew usually decides to leave their vehicle.

[KNac]

ParaBellum at what range?!? It didn´t work for me anyway, at ranges of 80m in flanks and rear, it could be a bad day maybe

However I say the same that other have said, it will work against the more common soviet tanks in 41. Did you know that the germans didn´t know a **** about T-34s and KV until the first time they saw them in combat?

I wouldn´t spoil german engineers, but I would spoil german intelligence (if it existed).

[tools4fools]

Originally posted by ParaBellum:

They penetrate the flanks and rear without problems and can penetrate the turret from the front if the distance isn't too great.

They won't blow the T-34s up in a big explosion, but after a few holes in their tank the crew usually decides to leave their vehicle.

Without problems? Well, they do penetrate but there are quite some ricochets as well. Rear I hadn't penetrations as well, armor good good sloped there. Mostly it seems lower hull and front turret penetrations. The round shape gives 0 degrees of slope on parts of the front turret I think, which then can be penetrated by the 37mm gun. Or is there a shot trap?

Ranges around 200m. It seems that the longer range is a bit more sucessful, less penetrations, but it takes considerably longer until the gun gets spotted. Really close up it's spotted almost immediatly and soon aferwards dead...

The real pain in the a*% is the non killing penetrations. Had two of three on a T-34 and no effect. The tanks turned the turret around and...bye,bye little gun. Awesome!

Marcus

****

[tom5172]

I just fired 11 shots at a T34 (point blank), 5 penetrated the rest just bounced off. I could literally see the shells break up on contact. Did I kill the tank? Hell no! I can help but pity those poor guys who had to face the T34 and KV1s with that thing. That's what I call a suicide mission.

Originally posted by ParaBellum:

Oh, I don't think the 3,7cm sucks that bad. I've already knocked out several T-34s with them. They penetrate the flanks and rear without problems and can penetrate the turret from the front if the distance isn't too great.

They won't blow the T-34s up in a big explosion, but after a few holes in their tank the crew usually decides to leave their vehicle.

[ParaBellum]

To clarify: when I say the 3,7cm penetrates rear and flanks without problems I don't mean they slice through the armour like a hot knife through butter. Rather that you can expect them to do fine if you observe a few points.

To knock out T-34s you need to

a.) let them come close enough , less than 200m is good, even less better...

b.) force the tanks to button up so that your guns remain unspotted longer. With the EFOW this is very important.

c.) always try to get flank shots at 90°. I like to use the cover arc command to ensure the guns only shoot when they will kill the tanks with a high propability.

d.) use narrow LOS for the AT guns. You really don't want six T-34s to open fire on your positions along with all the heavy weapons of the bataillon...

I was actually a bit surprised how well the 3,7cm guns do against the T-34s. I usually need least 3 penetrations but if you manage to engage the T-34s one by one it can be done.

[Dryfear]

Actually, the thread starter does have a point. Everywhere the Germans went, they met up with tanks that were more powerful than the 3.7cm AT gun, which was their main AT weapon in 1940. The truth be told, it was already outdated in 1940, but the Germans already knew that. The High Command dragged their feet on getting the 5cm AT gun, as well as 5cm cannon equipped panzers into battle.

By 1941, the production of 5cm AT guns was in full force, and the 3.7cm AT guns were being phased out.

[busboy]

Dryfear is absolutely correct. (As a WW2OLer should be on this matter... )

The 37mm gun the Germans used was nicknamed the "doorknocker" it was so ineffective. In the battle for Poland, the 37mm PaK was effective against the very very few Polish tanks it might encounter.

But after that, the 37mm was outarmored by almost everything it came up against. There were a few British crusier type tanks that it could penetrate without difficulty (wrorse for the crusier tank crews, the U.K. did not develop a H.E. round for the 40mm, 2 pounder gun.)

But if you look at everything from the invasion of Norway onward, the 37mm PaK is outclassed...the majority of French tanks in 1940 were too heavily armored to be effective.

It was the ineffectiveness of the 37mm that lead Erwin Rommel to use his 88mm FlaK guns as AT weapons to stop the British Matilda counterattack at Arras.

And I think the quote is brought up often here:

British tank crewman to interrigator: I say, I think its unfair that you chaps use your FlaK guns against our tanks.

German Interrigatior: Ja? Unt we zink it ist unfair zat you use tanks zat only our FlaK guns can penetrate!

[Seraphim]

@ BusBoy

*lacht* Ich lach mich wech...

"Unt we zink..." hahahahahahaha...

Did he really say that?!

[busboy]

Note: I speak no German, that was "Pig German," ment merely to look like Krautalkese for humorous effect.

Actually, I believe it was a bystandar of the interrogation who said that, but it is a historic quote.

"Not fair to use 88s on our tanks."

You know, I think that is about the most British military quote since:

BOOM!

British General: My God sir! I've lost my leg!

Wellington: My God sir! So you have!

The whole attitude of British war just seems to reek of Monty Python...

[tools4fools]

Parabellum,

yep, button up, close range and engage one by one. That works fine for me too and I'm surprised how well the little gun can do.

But then I get a bit worried thinking about PBEM games. My opponents might not do me all those favours mentioned above...

I just tested the little gun; weakest point indeed seems the front turret. If the T-34 is hulldown I get the best kill possiblity (OK) out to 340 meters. Maybe further, but haven't tested any longer range.

Side penetrations are mostly lower hull, sometimes side turret, but no upper hull observed yet.

Interesting that when I shot at the T-34 from the rear it seemed I got less penetrations than from the front.

On the Kursk scenario I KOed a Pz IV with a rear shot from a AT rifle...that was neat too...

Marcus

****

[busboy]

For what its worth, if I recall my data tables correctly, the armor thickness of the T-34's hull was 45mm all around, including on the rear upper hull, and all of it was sloped at something like a 40 degree angle.

So in essense, it doesn't matter where on the upper hull you hit the T-34, the armor is the same.

However, from the side the lower hull (that is, where all the running gear is) is thinner, and a 90 degree angle as well.

And then there is the turret. First, the angle of the turret armor is pretty steap all around, and the shape doesn't add too much to protection. Secondly, it does have some shot traps.

Just checking www.onwar.com and they list the turret armor as still 45mm thick all around. However, the turret is still the most vulenerable part as the shape doesn't add as much ballistic protection as the hull.

[Berlichtingen]

3,7cm ineffective against the French & British tanks? What have you guys been smoking? The 37 was quite capable against the vast majotity of both nations tanks in 1940. matildas and Char Bs were not the most common tanks. The Vickers and the H-39/R-35's were.

[busboy]

And the H-39 and R-35 had 40mm of armor, fairly well shaped. I've been smoking history books I suppose.

[Chad Harrison]

Play the game some more and you will notice that the little 37mm can penetrate the front turret armor of the T34 quite often. On a green crew, that almost always causes them to bail out.

Chad

[Firefly]

Originally posted by busboy:

British General: My God sir! I've lost my leg!

Wellington: My God sir! So you have!

The whole attitude of British war just seems to reek of Monty Python...

Nah, unlike you Yanks, we just don't get over-emotional about minor matters like losing a leg . As an old (Irish) song has it 'If you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined'.

[Bruno Weiss]

Chad Harrison wrote:

Play the game some more and you will notice that the little 37mm can penetrate the front turret armor of the T34 quite often. On a green crew, that almost always causes them to bail out.

I can hear it now, in a few short months the Geneva Gamey Commission will ban the 37mm as an Ubergun.

[wadepm]

A couple of quick observations that pertain to this thread...I hope:

I noticed when targeting T-34s that were hull down my little 37mm would have a hit chance of say 55% and a kill chance of good, but as soon as the beast topped the rise my hit chance would go up to 85% but the kill chance would go down to none. I am assuming that the computer is computing the kill chance based on the hull in this case rather than just the turret. My question is, will the TacAI of my pea shooter still target the turret because it knows that is the only place it can penetrate?

Killing T-34s is a 3 step process; key hole your placement of the AT gun, button up the T-34 and force the accompaning infantry to go to ground as early as possible using mortars or MGs. Because of the long delay times in getting Russian tanks moving they are frequently going to be given (by humans) orders that are simple and sometimes a little too long, i.e. they are going to get way ahead of the infantry at times and that is when you can pick them off.

[Tero]

Originally posted by wadepm:

My question is, will the TacAI of my pea shooter still target the turret because it knows that is the only place it can penetrate?

Propably not.

Has anybody gotten mobility kills against the T-34's or KV's ?

In the Kursk scen I sustained quite a few mobility kills to the ATG's and the KV's but in the Yelnia scen the T-34's kept on going taking hits allover the body but not a single hit at the tracks/powerpack. I even got a rear shot at a KV with a PzKw-IIIM and it hit the rear turret (before it was KO'd by a flank shot).

And one KV got abandoned after having taken several hits and it retreated out of LOS. Eventhough it was out of my LOS and I only had a contact marker showing the contact upgraded to Abandoned. Having that happen in EFOW was a bit of a surprise to be honest. A possible source for gamey intel in the full game ?

[ September 02, 2002, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: tero ]

[apex]

You know, I think that is about the most British military quote since:

Actually no. That honor goes to Admiral Beatty for the quote "There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today."

apex

[Pak_43]

] You know, I think that is about the most British military quote since:

BOOM!

British General: My God sir! I've lost my leg!

Wellington: My God sir! So you have!

The whole attitude of British war just seems to reek of Monty Python...

Possibly apocryphal story from the Falklands...

Dug in British para's are taking a stonking from Argentinian mortars....

After stonk is over one para cries out:

"***ing hell, I've lost my foot"

Silence for a few seconds before another para from a different fohole pipes up:

"No you haven't mate, it's over here!"

Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose....

Better get used to not being able to knock out the Russki heavy stuff easily if you're going to play '41 games... newbies to the eastern front are about to get a taste of what life is like in open steppes with very little in the way of infantry AT weapons, and also a new respect for the bravery of infantry tank-hunting teams...

[pathfinder]

What Pak_43 said:

"Better get used to not being able to knock out the Russki heavy stuff easily if you're going to play '41 games... newbies to the eastern front are about to get a taste of what life is like in open steppes with very little in the way of infantry AT weapons, and also a new respect for the bravery of infantry tank-hunting teams..."

just finished Zitadel as Rooskies (upped 50%)

Spoiler;

My two forward groups of Sov anti-tank infantry took out a tank each (Mark III's)...took whole team of 3-4 but they did it. If ya ever been infantry on the ground and tanks rumbling by or over ya.....takes big ones!

[ September 02, 2002, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: pathfinder ]