Yet another video card thread

[GWDWD]

I’ve got the upgrade bug and am thinking about a new video card. CM is currently about as graphically intense as my computer use gets, and I’m reasonably happy with what I have now except that things get a bit choppy when I’m playing with all the trees, doodads, etc. turned on. DVD playback is occasionally choppy as well, especially if I have other crap running in the background (which makes me wonder if the video card is really the problem).

What I have currently:

Dell Dimension 8200 Series

P4 2 GHz processor

768 MB RDRAM

4X AGP slot with GeForce2 MX 32 MB card

What I (think I) want:

Greater video memory (128 MB?)

DVI output (just got a new LCD monitor)

Not too terribly expensive (< $200 for sure but lower is better)

Fully functional with CM

I don’t know diddly/squat about video cards. Any suggestions or comments? Should I just leave well enough alone for the time being? Is the bottleneck likely to be somewhere other than the video card? Anything else you need to know about my system?

Thanks!

[Synurgi]

I was a novice like you and someone suggested this

page as a guideline...http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphic/20030120/vgacharts-02.html . It does a great

job of comparing the major cards and helped me

decide which one offers the best speed at a reasonable price. I got a ti4600 and have been

happy with it. It runs these games great with

all doodad/trees/weather enabled.One thing

to keep in mind is none of the Radeon cards

can display fog visually in these games,so if

fog is important to you, avoid Radeons and stick

with a Nvidia chipset card.

[junk2drive]

also check out www.pcmech.com forums. current ati recommendation is 9600 pro for value. all brands seem to cause some problems sooner or later.

[Biff]

You should also check on the level of your Nvidia display driver. I updated my driver on my laptop from 43.45 to 52.16 and the performance increase was very substantial (at least 4 times faster response when moving the view around the landscape).

[Jack Carr]

I have a GeForce Ti4600 128mb card. Great card. Works great with Combat Mission. My suggestion is to get a card that is 4X AGP and not 8X AGP. Stay with the 30.82 drivers. You can use all of the anti-aliasing bells and whistles without any problems. I would recommend a Ti4200 or Ti4600 card from any manufacturer that you can get your hands on. Try ZIPZOOMFLY.COM, they have a decent selection of video cards. Good luck.

[Agua]

I'll echo Jack Carr's reccommendation. I have an old Ti4600 128mb card and it ran CMBO & BB flawlessly. You can probably pick one up pretty cheaply too.

[GWDWD]

Originally posted by Synurgi:

I was a novice like you...

Novice? NOVICE?! I'm informationally challenged you... you...

Aw heck, I am a novice.

Originally posted by Biff:

You should also check on the level of your Nvidia display driver. I updated my driver on my laptop from 43.45 to 52.16 and the performance increase was very substantial (at least 4 times faster response when moving the view around the landscape).

Great idea, especially when I realized that I did a complete reformat and reinstall recently, which was right about the time that my computer's CM performance was getting on my nerves. Unfortunately, however, it doesn't seem to have made a difference. So much for the free solution.

Originally posted by junk2drive:

all brands seem to cause some problems sooner or later.

Yeah, that’s kinda why I’m wondering if I should just leave what I have alone. It works reasonably well and if it ain’t broke…

Originally posted by Jack Carr:

My suggestion is to get a card that is 4X AGP and not 8X AGP.

Is this for price reasons or something else? Can you use an 8X card in a 4X slot?

Doing a preliminary search on eBay, it looks like you can pick up a used (and occasionally new) ti4600 128 MB card for about $100-150. Retail it looks like they’re in the $200-300 range. Sound reasonable? Is there anything in particular to look out for with used video cards?

Thanks, fellers! Y’all are O-K!

[Schrullenhaft]

Hard to say what to look out for when purchasing a video card from eBay. You may want to do some internet searches on any particular card you care to bid on. Some of them have known problems (so you'll want to search on manufacturer and model number, etc.). Gainward, which is still a good brand, has had some problematic cards in the past that have had known problems (some of which can still be fixed under warranty).

And caveat emptor... there are scams on eBay for just about everything.

The reason that the AGP 4X cards were recommended instead of AGP 8X (speaking of specific NVidia-based cards only) is that the 30.82/30.87 driver works with the GeForce 4 Ti series that is AGP 4X only. Most new cards for sale from retailers in the GeForce 4 family will be AGP 8X (Ti 4200 AGP 8X, Ti 4800/4800SE & GeForce 4 MX 440 AGP 8X all won't work with the 30.8x drivers). The GeForce 4 Ti 4200 AGP 4X, Ti 4400 & Ti 4600 will work with the 30.8x drivers, and these are probably the cards to get from eBay.

The GeForce FX series isn't too bad, but there have been some problems and some of the models are slower than the GeForce 4 family they were intended to replace. I'd suggest avoiding the FX 5200. The FX 5600/5700 families should be OK. Going beyond that depends on how much you want to spend.

Regarding ATI video cards. They're great cards with very good price-to-performance, but they lack one thing for CM... fog. They don't support fog-tables or fog-table emulation, which may or may not matter to you. Ironically Radeons on the Mac do support fog-tables, so this is a decision made by the driver development team and not a hardware limitation (though the Radeon 8500 & 9x00's on the Mac have some other, more severe, problems on the Mac with their current RAVE drivers).

You can probably post back to this thread with anything that interests you and people can sound off here on your choice.

[GWDWD]

Originally posted by Schrullenhaft:

You can probably post back to this thread with anything that interests you and people can sound off here on your choice.

I appreciate your help.

Any thoughts on this card:

128MB NVIDIA GeForce4 Ti 4600 graphics card by PNY Technologies. This product is brand new and still shrink wrapped.

I'm starting to think maybe I need to be thinking cheaper...

[TufenHuden]

I would get the Gainward-5700FX-128-mb-great card and only $200.00 bucks,look at www.pricewatch.com

then fing www.extremegear.com they have them at

$197.00,not a bad deal,I've Gainward-5900FX-256mb

won it in ebay for $300.00,but on ebay you are taking a chance,but you can get a decent GF-4-4400

,4600 for about $150.00 or less off ebay and if you can get a Gainward-GF-4-4400,4600,just type Gainward and you'll get a page or 2 to bid on.

[TufenHuden]

seen a couple for 150.00 on pricewatch.

[ December 08, 2003, 04:07 AM: Message edited by: TufenHuden ]

[TufenHuden]

bump.

[ December 08, 2003, 04:08 AM: Message edited by: TufenHuden ]

[Schrullenhaft]

I'd recommend that card you're bidding on - the GeForce 4 Ti 4600. It's a good performing card and PNY is a good brand (they're the primary manufacturer of Quadro workstation graphics cards). It may lack somewhat for the very latest DirectX 9 features (Pixel Shader 2.0), but this really won't be a big deal for at least a year or more, depending on what games you play.

Admittedly the current bid price is probably going to climb a bit towards the end. US$150-200 is quite likely.

[GWDWD]

Originally posted by Schrullenhaft:

I'd recommend that card you're bidding on - the GeForce 4 Ti 4600. It's a good performing card and PNY is a good brand (they're the primary manufacturer of Quadro workstation graphics cards). It may lack somewhat for the very latest DirectX 9 features (Pixel Shader 2.0), but this really won't be a big deal for at least a year or more, depending on what games you play.

Admittedly the current bid price is probably going to climb a bit towards the end. US$150-200 is quite likely.

Dang... went for $107.50. I think if I had been in town and paying attention I'd have bid that one up a bit more. I really have a hard time spending $200+ because CM is a bit choppy sometimes, but if I could find something closer to $100...

[GWDWD]

Idiotic double-post.

[ December 11, 2003, 02:42 AM: Message edited by: GWDWD ]

[FallenGod]

I would recommend that you either pick up a Geforce 4 series card (4200/4400/4600) or a Radeon 9600 Pro. Either of those should run you between $100-150 depending on where you get them from.

I can't give you many specifics as to what manufacturer to get a Geforce 4 from (haven't had an nVidia card since the Geforce 2), but I can give you some general tips.

For a Geforce 4:

*Do NOT purchase a Geforce 4 MX. The MX series are just relabeled Geforce 2's, they're a waste of your money.

*The Geforce 4 4200 64mb card can be had for around $100, and is a very sound card if you're just looking to play Combat Mission and a few older games. Just make sure the one you buy has that DVI connector.

*The Geforce 4 4600's are a fair bit faster and have 128mb of memory. If you'd like your card to last longer, by all means get one of these. Excellent cards.

*I didn't mention the Geforce FX 5600 series because their performance is quite mediocre. A good Geforce 4 will easily outshine them. The newer 5700 Ultra's are quite respectable, but are near your upper limit of price ($200).

For the ATI Radeon 9600 Pro:

*Much like the Geforce 4 MX cards, the Radeon 9600 SE cards are not worth your money. They're the crappy low budget cards. The newer 9600 XT's are ATI's newest mid-range cards, but near the upper limit of your price ($200).

*For ATI cards, purchase either a Built by ATI card, or one from Sapphire. Either of those will be the highest quality ATI cards (in fact, Sapphire produces the "Built by ATI" cards for ATI).

*ATI Radeon 9600 Pro's (make sure it's a Pro) w/ 128mb can be had for around ~$150, and are comparable to a Geforce 4 4400/4600 in raw performance. Anti-aliasing and anistropic filtering performance is far better on the Radeon, and they're DirectX 9 compatible, so that might be something to consider.

*As far as ATI's drivers are concerned, they're far, far better than they were even a year ago. On my Radeon 9700 Pro and my roommate's 9500 Pro, we have yet to have a single crash or problem with any of the recent drivers.

Sorry if that ran a bit long, video cards are a bit of a hobby of mine . Either way you go (Geforce 4 / Radeon 9600 Pro), you'll get a good card that should last you a while. Both options should be had for ~$150 or less.

Edit- Just wanted to address some stuff I missed in the thread.

*ATI cards lack fog table emulation in their windows drivers. This is true. All the smoke effects are still there on my 9700 Pro (even the dust in CMAK), but no fog. It's just one effect, so I don't notice it when playing, but it doesn't hurt to have all the facts before buying.

*AGP 8X cards ARE backwards compatible with AGP 4X slots, so don't worry there. There will be no negative effects on performance using an 8X card in a 4X slot, either.

[ December 11, 2003, 02:24 AM: Message edited by: FallenGod ]

[GWDWD]

Originally posted by FallenGod:

Sorry if that ran a bit long, video cards are a bit of a hobby of mine

:eek:

Thanks. Need some time to digest, but video cards are most certainly not a hobby of mine! This is exactly the kind of info I'm looking for!!

[GWDWD]

So I ended up winning an auction for a used Asus V8460 Ultra GeForce 4 Ti4600 128mb card for $120 shipped. I was kinda hesitant to buy used electronics through eBay, but the guy I bought it from has 100% positive feedback with over 700 reviews. Hopefully it will be okay.

I greatly appreciate the input of everyone who has helped out in this thread.

Next up (in a week or so): Yet Another I Can't Get My New Video Card to Work Thread!

[FallenGod]

Nice buy man, I'm sure you'll be happy with it.

[TufenHuden]

That's a good card,you won't be disapionted with that card,they had a Gainward 4400 to buy for 110

but that went fast.

[easytarget]

i'd be interested to hear how this performs

i've used quite a few video cards over the last year or so playing all the CM's

what i've observed is that beyond a certain point the vid card isn't the bottleneck, processor speed is

the game literally pegs the processor - i'm currently running a 3ghz and still get occasional stutter - and i'm fairly confident this isn't due to the ati 9800pro's capabilities

i get no stutter at all in cmbo, i get some in battles beyond 2000 points in cmbb, but interestingly don't see as much stutter in cmak as in cmbb - course that's off of a lot fewer games played

i mostly run the newest vid cards for other games and expect little benefit to cm when deciding on a next purchase

just out of idle curiosity - anyone reading this thread ever use dual processors on this game? i doubt it's set up to make use of them properly, but i'd still be interested to hear if it made any difference - with the dual G5 apple or the up and coming amd 64bit dual coming out it'd be interesting to see what impact extra procesor power had on cm

[brooktrout]

Originally posted by easytarget:

...just out of idle curiosity - anyone reading this thread ever use dual processors on this game? i doubt it's set up to make use of them properly, but i'd still be interested to hear if it made any difference - with the dual G5 apple or the up and coming amd 64bit dual coming out it'd be interesting to see what impact extra procesor power had on cm

I've run all three of the CM games on dual processors. My current setup is dual P4 2.2Ghz Xeons and you are right, it is not coded to take advantage of dual procs. The OS spreads the CM process over each cpu equally, roughly 50% across each cpu. I can however run other background processes such as a full virus scan while running CM and not notice any slowness or choppiness in CM. This is where duallies shine IMO. Great responsiveness while running multiple apps.

[Hpt. Lisse]

My Ti4600 Asylum always served me well... I use it in my second rig now, where it continues to perform. Primary rig now uses a eVGA FX5900 (non-ultra), which now goes for under $190 on Pricewatch. The non-Ultra doesn't give up much to it's higher-clocked sibling, as you can see here. Yeah, the whole Nvidia thing is solely to get fog in Combat Mission.

http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphic/20030714/index.html

Hpt. Lisse

[GWDWD]

Grrrr....

Today I was looking around at some info on installing video cards so I'll be ready when the one I bought arrives. It appears from this website that my motherboard can only handle a 1.5 V AGP card. A manual I found for the Asus V8460 says (on the bottom of page 12) that a 3.3 V power supply is needed.

So my questions:

1) I'm screwed, right?

2) If so, what would be a good card that I could use with my motherboard? I had no idea that these types of compatibility issues even existed.

3) Anybody want to buy a nice used Ti4600 video card?

I should just stick to something I know, like beer.

[edit: Hmmm... doing a quick Google seach with ti4600 and "dimension 8200" shows that there are apparently lots of people who are using that type of card in that type of machine. Not sure if their situations are different than mine, though. Since I don't actually have the card in my posession, I'm not chomping at the bit yet to try it out. I'll just anxiously await someone who knows what they are talking about to chime in! Thanks for your help.]

[ December 17, 2003, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: GWDWD ]

[Schrullenhaft]

No, you're confusing the details (and plenty of 'tech' documentation doesn't really make some things clear).

A 3.3V power supply is an industry standard (ATX is the name you'll hear for them). It powers the motherboard, drives and anything installed on the motherboard (in this case an AGP video card). The '1.5V AGP Video card' is another way of saying 'AGP 4X', which is what the GeForce 4 Ti4600 is. The '3.3V AGP' cards are AGP 1X/2X. The most noticeable difference is in the way the slot adapter for the two cards are made. The 3.3V standard has the 'notch' in the AGP connector towards the 15 pin video connector, while the 1.5V has the notch toward the back of the card. There are cards that are universal that can fit into both slot types (two notches). The reason for the different notches was to keep motherboards from accepting 3.3V cards and to keep 1.5V cards from being stuck into 3.3V motherboards (uh... you get the idea).

Anyway, the GeForce 4 Ti 4600 should be a good match for your P4 system. And if you don't want it, I'll buy it off of you (assuming that it's still in working condition...).